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Ren's Biking Blog
The Great Oil Debate
Blog Date - 27 December 2016
You wouldn't think motor oil would be a contentious subject but it is, especially for motorcyclists. Broadly speaking motorcyclists fall into 2 groups - those who use oils specifically formulated for motorcycles and those who choose general car oil. These 2 groups can be further split into those who use high quality fully synthetic oils versus users of mineral oils, nowadays with synthetic additives (aka semi-synthetic).
In the interest of full disclosure I hereby declare that I am in the car oil semi synthetic segment (Dino car oil). I will try to keep a balanced approach here.
Abbreviations -
- MC = Motorcycle
- FS = Fully Synthetic
- Dino = Semi Synthetic mineral oil (made from dinosaurs hence Dino)
This is my oil of choice for the CBF125.
Car Oil versus MC Oil.
Oil is oil innit? No, not really. Taking the FS versus Dino oil base out of the equation still leaves us with a lot of additives. Some additives help the oil suspend dirt and metal particles to keep the engine clean. Some reduce the levels of rust and corrosion in the motor. Some control water contamination usually due to condensation. Some make things extra super slippery. Some are like soft metal to fill in any damage on worn engine parts.
Whoa, back up there, some are extra super slippery? That's fabulous ain't it? You want oil to be super extra slippery don't ya? Ya do if you're a car engine, it helps with fuel economy and reduces wear. It does the same for a motorcycle engine too except that most motorcycles have the clutch in the same oil as the rest of the engine oil. Clutches don't like too much super extra slippery additive because the clutch plates may never stick together completely - this is known as clutch slippage, kind of like riding with your clutch lever pulled in just a little bit all the time.
Sharon's choice is specifically for motorcycles.
So manufactures of MC oil don't add the extra super slippery additives. Don't worry it's still plenty slippery, just not super extra slippery. That way the clutch plates can stick together properly. This argument makes perfect logical sense and seems scientific enough. Except that even though I use car oil I've never experienced it myself. I don't believe my CBF125 has enough power to overcome even the most slippery of oil in the clutch. I never found the SLR650's torque caused the clutch to slip. I never experienced a problem on the 95bhp Fazer 600 either.
In every forum post on this matter you will find people like myself who've never experienced the problem and those who have fully experienced the problem. Who is right? Are we all liars? I suspect complexity is the answer. Maybe I use cheap car oils that don't have the extra super slippery additive? Maybe other people have very powerful motorcycles? Maybe some folk's clutches are a little worn? Until someone conducts an unbiased scientifically sound study on various motorcycles with various oils with various additives it is nigh-on impossible for any side to claim they are correct with so many variables in place.
The clutch in the engine argument is the most commonly sighted reason to use MC oil rather than car oil. There are other reasons too. Most motorcycles share the engine oil with the gearbox. Most cars don't, they have a separate gearbox that uses oil specially designed for gears. Gears inflict a lot of "shear" force on oil, think of shear as tearing, ripping, pulling and shredding. The actual base oil doesn't suffer too much but the additives do.
Quick note on oil numbers like 10W-40 or 20W-50. These numbers reflect the viscosity of the oil, in layman's terms how thick and gloopy or thin and watery the oil is. 10 is quite watery perhaps like olive oil, 50 is quite thick perhaps like liquid hand soap. The "10W" or "20W" is how thick the oil is when cold, the "40" or "50" is how thick the oil is when up to engine temperature. Roughly speaking.
How this is you oil when cold and when hot?
One of these additives is that which turns a 10W oil into a 10W-40 for example. What? Eh? Right this is going to weird you out. When the oil is cold it is thick and gloopy. When it gets hot it gets thinner and more watery. Or...does it? The additives are polymers, long chains of molecules. When they are cold they are wrapped up into little balls. When they get hot they unravel into angular spikey molecules. These unravelled angular spikey molecules cause the oil to "act" like it's actually thicker, hence why the warm engine number is higher than the cold number. To the touch warm oil feels thinner and more water like than cold oil yet in the engine it acts like it's thicker and offers more protection. It's complicated.
These polymers get shredded by the gears. New oil might be 10W-40 but as the polymers break under the destructive forces of the gear teeth the oil degrades into maybe 10W-35, then 10W-30 then 10W-25 and so on. This does happen in a car but the gearbox in some motorcycles makes it happen much faster. The thinner the oil is when it is warmed up the less the oil can protect the engine. HOWEVER!!! Do NOT ever ever ever use thicker oil than recommend for your engine, It's complicated but just DON'T!
MC oil manufacturers claim their oil is specifically designed to cope better with these shear forces. This to me implies that their oil's polymers are rougher, tougher, meaner and stronger so they can cope. If this is the case why are these polymers not being used in car oil too? Cost? Technical reasons? I shall leave you to decide whether this is marketing hype or scientific fact. No matter what ALL polymers break down sooner or later so change your blooming oil.
These are the 2 most oft sighted reasons to choose MC oil rather than car oil. There are other reasons too but let's stick to the main points.
Dino versus FS oils
Dino oil is created from the same stuff your petrol is made of. Dead critters buried under the earth for millions of years and squished into black gold, Texas tea and the real reason why governments go to war. FS oil is synthesised, created in a pristine laboratory from pure raw materials by people in white coats wearing goggles. Well, that's what the marketing would have you believe but yes, the idea is about right.
Dino oil's molecules are haphazard, variable and imperfect. Synthesised oils are much more uniform and precise. There seems to be little disagreement that FS oils are better, the real question is how much better? How much more wear is caused by the imperfections? When a camshaft comes crashing down onto a rocker arm do flawless molecules of FS oil offer more protection than random molecules of Dino oil?
Is it better to change your oil every 4,000 miles for nice clean Dino rather than making FS last for 6,000 miles? My best analogy is Fairy washing up liquid versus Aldi cheap washing up liquid and a massive pile of dishes. 1 bowl of hot water and Fairy for the whole lot or 2 bowls of hot water and cheap Aldi? At least with the Aldi stuff the dirty water is changed half way through. In a perfect world you'd use 2 bowls of Fairy, best of both worlds but more cost.
That...that sums up the Dino versus FS oil pretty well to my mind.
Remember this no matter what you choose. Change the gosh darn bleeding oil AT LEAST as often as the engine maker recommends. Use the recommended viscosity (10W-30, 10W-40, 20W-50 etc). Personally I don't doubt that better quality (usually more expensive) oils offer better protection. I choose to use cheaper Dino car oils but to change the oil more often than recommended.
PLEASE NOTE.
I encourage and welcome you to disagree with my opinions. I encourage you to do your own research. I ask that you put your thoughts and opinions in the comments. What I won't accept is anything rude, offensive or a personal attack. Constructive debate not destructive argument please.
Reader's Comments
Ian Soady said :-
You do realise what you've started here?
I agree that in general there's no difference between car & bike oil. However, what you have to be careful of is friction modifiers in car oil. These are added to improve the efficiency / economy (possibly only under lab test conditions and with specially modified ECUs) and in theory are identified by a special symbol as in the link.
I have never actually seen this symbol in the UK - but that doesn't mean these additives don't exist.
It's also worth pointing out that some synthetics are in fact based on mineral oil (cheaper): others are ester-based which gives a more regular and repeatable formulation. But of course more expensive.
I do use bike-specific oil (Silkolene as it happens) but my bikes tend not to be terribly picky about what they want.
Riders of old bikes often say that monogrades are better than multigrades as the gears in the engine "chop the polymers in multigrades up". I personally think this is rubbish, and can't imagine many of these people have tried starting a 500cc single in the depths of winter when it's filled with straight 40. The same people also often say that detergent oils are bad as they dislodge sludge which has settled and cause it to block oilways. More rubbish IMO. What detergents do is to suspend new contaminants (eg carbon from the combustion process) so it can safely be removed from the engine at the next oil change.
www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/171/oil-can...
29/12/2016 11:21:31 UTC
Ren - The Ed said :-
I do realise what I've started, I've seen other forums! Friction modifiers are - in my words - super extra slippery additives. It's a matter of opinion and/or experience as to what effect they have on clutches.
Now - I've been told (ie I don't know if it's true) that the gears do indeed "chop the polymers in multigrades up". It sort of makes sense to me.
Polymers work like this. When cold they are rolled up into balls. When they are hot they unroll into spikey shaped molecules. Imagine a big funnel filled with ping pong balls. As long as the funnel opening is wide enough the balls will fall through the funnel. These are cold polymers. When they get hot the ping pong balls unwrap and become long strips of plastic with angular protrusions. This makes going through the funnel a lot harder.
Now imagine these ping pong balls, both rolled up and unrolled and spikey, going through the gears. The gears mash and tear at the balls and spinkey strips, makeing them smaller - and more likely to flow through the funnel.
With less and less of these polymers intact and complete the "40" of "10W-40" becomes "10W-35" and then "10W-30" and so on. If left in the engine long enough you'll basically end up with "10W-whatever the base oil is when hot".
The base oils don't degrade like this, they're too tough. They do get dirty so even a straight 40 will need changing. As you say though a straight 40 in the middle of winter will be so thick that cranking the motor will be hard, the oil won't reach the top of then engine for ages and would be nigh-on impossible to squeeze through the narrow passages of the crank.
If like a modern motorcycle or a restored one your engine has been running on oil with a detergent then there should be no sludge to dislodge into the passageways anyhow. I can see it as being possible on an old engine but unlikely.
As for synthetics that aren't actually synthetic then that's just marketing hype and ought to be illegal. I've seen a report of a company selling Dino oil as fully synthetic because "the base oil is so good it's as good as a synthetic". Hmmmmm. Perhaps I should sell my knackered old CBF125 as a brand new CBR1000 because "it's as good as a new CBF1000". I mean lets face it, they both start, they both will take you to the shops and they both have 2 wheels.
29/12/2016 21:16:10 UTC
Latchy said :-
What annoys me are the people who waste money by putting fully synthetic oil in their bikes engine thinking they are doing the best thing and only cover a few thousand (or hundred) miles on UK roads mainly at under 70 mph only to then sell their machine and get another new one only to repeat the process again and again. Ren your bike has to work harder being a 125 and you have proved my point about not needing the most expensive oil, what is your mileage now, 60,000?
I have done about 300,000 since 1978 using the only the cheapest oils at first, and then semi synthetic when first introduced.
People! You only need semi synthetic at the most, Especially on a bigger bike that only gets above tick over for half its life.
30/12/2016 13:58:34 UTC
Snod said :-
I'm not sure you're right about the viscosity increasing when the temperature increases. As I understand it, using 10w40 as an example, it acts like a cold 10w when cold and like a hot 40w when hot. This can still be thinner than a cold 10w but it's a lot better/thicker than a hot 10w. Does this make sense?
Love the blog by the way, so nice to see someone experiencing the real life version of motorcycling, the version that I experience, rather than caning new bikes at a Spanish race track on an all expenses paid trip. Keep up the good work!
30/12/2016 14:37:26 UTC
Ren - The Ed said :-
Snod - I...I suspect you may be right. The thing that's always confused my is 10W-40 when hot is without doubt thinner. As such I never understood that it's viscosity could be greater.
So what you are saying is - ahem - 10W is the cold viscosity and for example 40 is how thick a standard non multigrade 40 oil would be when it's hot, engine temp?
That makes perfect sense to me and I thank you for suggesting this. Do you know this as fact or like myself just what you've been told? It would be nice if someone could give us a reliable reference to put us right.
I'm glad you like the blog. Yeah this is real life motorcycling but if someone...ANYONE wants to send me on an all expenses paid trip to a Spanish race track to ride some exotic motorcycles then I'm up for it. I must point out however I probably won't be riding them very fast...
Latchy - the CBF125 only has 59,200 miles on the clock at the moment.
There are those that will argue that putting the very very bestest most expensive oil into an engine that only gets used occasionally is even more important. I'm sure there are but I can't think of any reason why.
I must admit the idea of putting £15 per single litre of oil into a motorcycle that I plan to ride for 1,500 miles per annum seems excessive. I mean lets face it in 5 years of ownership you're only going to cover 7,500 miles. You could probably use cooking oil for that mileage and the engine would be fine.
I guess the problem with this website is that I'm preaching to the converted. We need someone who reads Performing Berks, wears one piece race leathers and uses phrases like "150mph wheelie".
30/12/2016 15:29:53 UTC
Snod said :-
Wahaha, Performing Berks!
Ren, I think you get it. Here's the explanation on Wikipedia:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_oil#Multi-grade...
30/12/2016 15:39:30 UTC
Ian Soady said :-
Interesting wikipedia page but I think slightly misleading. Ren and Snod are, I believe, correct in saying that the 10W indicates that the oil behaves as a straight SAE 10 at winter temperature and the /40 that it is the same as a straight 40 at 100C. The oil is of course less viscous in absolute terms at 100C than it is at 10C (or whatever "cold" means) hence my suggesting that wikipedia is misleading.
The link below is, I think, more useful.
www.upmpg.com/tech_articles/motoroil_viscosity/...
30/12/2016 16:01:04 UTC
Ian Soady said :-
And this page (old but written by someone who knew what he was about - and as a Commando owner obviously a good chap!) is to me an excellent explanation of oils and how they work.
Sadly the author died some years ago.
www.realclassic.co.uk/techfiles/oil030319.html...
30/12/2016 16:02:59 UTC
Snod said :-
That second link is very helpful, thanks Ian. It is starting to show its age now though in that ZDDP content (or just Zinc as he calls it) has been lowered in modern car oils through emissions regulations. This is what would put me off using a SL/SN rated car oil in a motorcycle engine, as we have small/narrow cam lobes which see high pressures and our gearboxes also see a lot of metal-metal contact. I believe this is partly why bike oils now have their own MA and MA2 ratings rather then following with the SL/SN nomenclature. Diesel oil is still allowed to have a decent amount, though..
Anyway, I'm a cheapest semi-synth bike oil change-it-often kind of guy. Cheapest bike oil is getting less and less cheap though, maybe I will have to try this lovely diesel stuff soon.
30/12/2016 17:00:44 UTC
Ren - The Ed said :-
The prices are weird. MC oil such as the semi synthetic Sharon uses £25 for 5l off fleabay. Halfords basic semi synthetic £21. Seems like spending the little extra may be worth it.
Then Halfords have regular sales on oil. Just picked up a 4l tub for £12. Dammit more car oil it is then.
31/12/2016 08:31:26 UTC
Stuart said :-
I tend to use cheap car oil in my hack er and bike specific in my Bandit.
Neither has given any problems or benefits come to that but the er's clutch plates have always stuck at first start of the day (in gear on the centre stand with the clutch lever in and the wheel is being driven). It has been like this since I bought it as a used bike but have read somewhere that this can be caused by using car oil in a bike.
Stuart.
31/12/2016 20:51:45 UTC
Ren - The Ed said :-
Cheers Stuart. The clutch plates sticking is an interesting example of the confusion in this topic. The friction modifiers or "extra super slippery additives" as I call them allegedly affect clutches.
In my head the idea is they make things slippery. So...is it possible they can make the plates stick together? Gut instinct says no, they make things slippery rather than sticky surely. If I was that way out I could start shouting in CAPITAL LETTERS that you're an idiot or a liar.
But - maybe there's something I've missed. Maybe there's a tiny amount of clutch slippage that releases some material that fuses when the motor cools. Maybe the additives are not slippery when they're cool. Maybe the additives cause a chemical reaction fusing the plates overnight.
My point is that I'm not an expert! I don't have access to YOUR bike with YOUR specific clutch plates and YOUR oil. Nor do I have a degree in chemistry or molecular sciences and so on.
All I can suggest is you try motorcycle oil in the ER (500 I presume?) and see what happens. I for one would be interested to hear the results.
31/12/2016 21:30:16 UTC
Stuart said :-
Hi. Yes it is a 500. I was thinking when the weather is warmer to replace the clutch and run it on motorcycle oil to see if it makes a difference. Trouble is with it being a hack bike I don't want to spend money on it if I don't have to. As it works ok I've just put up with it. I've got in the habit of starting it up on the centre stand, putting it in 1st, pulling the clutch in and (while sitting on the bike) rocking it off the stand. As soon as the wheel hits the ground the clutch frees off and no strain on the gearbox from a clunky 1st gear selection.
In the interest of science however if readers want to find out if dedicated oil makes a difference I will do if they send me £100 or so to cover the costs. Have you had any takers for your fork seal protection kit service?
01/01/2017 09:46:40 UTC
Ren - The Ed said :-
Ah but the problem with replacing the clutch is you've added another variable to the mix. Maybe the new clutch plates are OK with car oil and so on. Is it not worth doing just one oil change with motorcycle oil on the ER500 with bike oil to see what happens?
As for the fork seal protection kit - no, no offers so far. I can't think why, I mean £4,500 is pretty good value. Also I think your £100 for using MC oil is rather too cheap, you're underselling yourself.
We'll all be millionaires this time next week Stuart.
01/01/2017 12:04:18 UTC
Henrik said :-
Lots of struggles in life, and so little time, when lots of competent people I have known for years, and trust, all tell me same: "USE MC-OIL" ,.. then I don't realy need to question that, especially not when I can have 4L of my MC-oil by choice for 20 euros, sometimes less,..
All my 4 bikes use 10/40 ,.. when there is a sale I order 5x4L at Louis, at my door-matt it will all be delivered for 7 Euros
Deal done, no speculation, using my energy elsewhere :-)
What I believe however is, changing more frequently can have possetive effect
But then again, people can torture their engines with crap-oil and no change of oil, and still its something else that will kill the bike in the last end
What oil I use is in the link below, KL500, Honda Innova, Hyosung XRX
www.louis.de/artikel/procycle-4t-motoroel-10w-40-teilsynthetisch/10038450?list=2...
01/01/2017 20:32:55 UTC
Henrik said :-
Cheap oil or expensive brand oil ?
In this question I would say just stay away from the cheapest junk, don't know about Aldi supermarket, but I would not trust them :-)
Most of the cheaper types however is just re-branded products from the big
ones, Louis own should be OK, and so with the oil from Biltema-stores found in Scandinavia
People who does still argue "you always get what you pay for" I usually suggest they go look for the most expensive gas-station when they fill up their tank, same with oil more or less,..
In the car I cut down the intervals from 15.000 km to 7.500 km ,.. but only becourse Corsa 1.0 have had problems with the timming chain, and frequently change of oil is my only chance to sustain its life just a little bit
02/01/2017 00:40:03 UTC
Bob said :-
I've used car oil in the past and it killed the clutch on my SLR650 and FX650 (I bought the oil and changed the oil on both bikes, then went out for a ride..)
I use motorcycle oil. JASO MA2 is the standard the Japanese motorcycle manufacturers recommend and that's what I use. 20 Litres of 10W40 semi synth in a drum is £34 from my local oil supplier. I change oil and filter every 1000 miles.
I add ZDDP, to help the camshaft on my old fashioned engine. ZDDP is yet another good thing that went away when catalytic convertors came in.
03/01/2017 10:01:10 UTC
Ren - The Ed said :-
Another example of it worked for me but not for you Bob! Do you recall which car oil you used? I'm wondering whether my cheap Halfords stuff doesn't have the friction modifier in or not.
03/01/2017 10:33:16 UTC
Bob said :-
It was car oil from the same local supplier!
I think the friction reducing additives arrived at SL grades and above - if your cheapo stuff is SG or lower then it won't have it them.
FWIW I used car oil exclusively for years, until the coming of the additives cost me two sets of clutch plates, at which point I switched to JASO MA2.
03/01/2017 16:10:02 UTC
Alan said :-
I want to know where he gets the oil from, at that price I'll buy a couple of years supply and run the car on it. Possibly even the chip pan.
03/01/2017 17:07:37 UTC
Ren - The Ed said :-
Has a look on the tub of oil from Halfords. It states...
"Recommend for applications requiring ACEA A3/B3 and API SL CF".
There's an SL there so that implies it has the clutch killing friction modifiers. I shall go and do a little reading to see what all that means.
Alan - maybe Henrik can start an oil import business to the UK and we can get some of his oil?
03/01/2017 18:35:29 UTC
Ren - The Ed said :-
According to the link below which is from the API website...
SL is for "For 2004 and older automotive engines". The sheet doesn't mention anything at all about friction modifiers though.
www.api.org/~/media/files/certification/engine-oil-diesel/publications/mom_guide...
03/01/2017 18:45:23 UTC
Alan said :-
I know Honda recommend for the GROM, SG or higher for the API classification, SJ preferred, but without Resource Conserving or Energy Conserving additives. So an oil that only meets the SAE and API spec can be used. Ones without any enhancement. Yamaha in the YBR 125 Manual also state do not use oils with a CD specification (Diesel)or of a higher quality than specified, in addition do not use oils labelled Energy conserving II or higher.
Under SAE and API's classification systems there is only motor engine oils of a set standard, it is up to the engine manufacturer to determine what one to use. A SAE 10W- 40 API SJ is a standard, if the oil meets the standard then it can be used in any engine that requires that standard. Regardless of what the engine powers or is attached to.
If the oil is enhanced or otherwise exceeds the standard then it may not be suitable, putting fully synth oil in a series II Land Rover will not do the engine any favours. So putting enhanced extra slippy 10W-40 in a motor bike will not help it any either, but putting meets the spec recommended by the manufacturer and no more should be fine. In this case the cheap no frills oil will more likely be compatible with a bike engine than the super duper high price stuff.
Also all the various oil types for lawn mowers, diesels, quad bikes etc are probably more marketing than science. Motorbike oils might have a few extra cleaners in it or similar but I think personally you are paying more for what is the least sophisticated of all the various engine type lubes. Your paying them not to put in the additives. Your engine will run fine on the manufacturers recommended spec at the service intervals stated. Does it say on FS oil how far beyond the service intervals you can safely extend your oil changes. Probably not,I've never seen hard numbers on car oil, if it did and your engine was scragged you could then say, but XXX said I can go 30,00 miles without an oil change.
At work we run Diesel engines from 6HP to 39,000 HP power output, they all run basic 10W-40. No enhancement, no cleaners, no special diesel maintenance additives. Pure basic SAE/API Spec. We replace the bigger engine oil when analysis shows it is on its last legs but not before, when you have to replace 25,000 litres a shot you make darn sure it has nothing left to give. The smaller systems we change as per the manual, xxxxx running hours, oil change.
Disclaimer, All opinions are my own, if you wreck your engine from reading this don't blame me.
04/01/2017 00:59:02 UTC
Tom McQ said :-
Remember the old days when you used a different oil in the summer than you did in the winter? Obviously modern oils have a wider range of viscosity to cover all seasons. I don't torture myself with the FS/DINO decision - I just follow the manufacturer's recommendation. But I buy the cheapest one I can find on offer and I change the oil more frequently than recommended, because to me, there's no better way of giving your beloved bike a great big hug :-P
04/01/2017 08:44:11 UTC
Ren - The Ed said :-
25,000 LITRES!!! Holy cow Alan. Tell me, do you get a discount when you buy bulk? That's 5,000 5l tubs. Let's say you got good fully synthetic in there at £35 for 5l. That's £175,000 worth of oil. Even if we put in cheap stuff at £10 for 5l that's £50,000.
I'm fairly sure your engineers are NOT going on forums like this to find out the facts. I guess they're the real deal with laboratories, qualifications and proper science. I bet they still have their own opinions though.
Why would putting fully synthetic in a series II Land Rover cause issues?
As for service intervals I'm with Tom. Luckily my oil changes don't cost £50,000 or more so my CBF125 receives an oil change every 2,000 miles as opposed to the recommended 2,500.
Tom McQ, Ian Soady mentioned some vintage riders will use a straight 40 or similar. In these days of multigrade I find it hard to imagine a summer and winter oil, especially when the weather is almost infinitely changeable in the UK at least.
04/01/2017 10:31:46 UTC
Alan said :-
Yes we do get a discount. We tend to buy in large batches of various oils including fully synthetic jet oils for our gas turbines and different types of hydraulic oils and non jet turbine oils.
Older engines where they are still using the original type seals tend to have problems with synthetic as it isn't always compatible with the seal material. If you have anything that is a bit iffy seal wise it will go through it like a bad curry.
I'd like to know where Bob is getting his oil from as he is getting a better deal than we are and we go through thousands of litres a week. Some of our kit normally burns between 10 to 20 litres a day, add it all up and it's one hell of an oil bill. Normal resupply would be around 10'000 litres at a time. Wonder what Bob's supplier would charge to ship to Brasil. Hmmmmm.
04/01/2017 11:03:17 UTC
Ren - The Ed said :-
Alan - what is it you do?
04/01/2017 11:21:20 UTC
Alan said :-
I'm a sailor, on that thing. :-)
04/01/2017 17:52:18 UTC
Ren - The Ed said :-
Ahaaargh, a salty seadog then huh? Life on the ocean waves and all that. I'm guessing several months at sea then several months at home.
04/01/2017 18:15:40 UTC
Pocketpete said :-
What I will do is put castrol rip off oil in my cb500x you put cheap stuff in yours. As the bikes are similar age and identical models wd can do a taste test lol.
See who get the worst oil out after a few thousand miles.
05/01/2017 16:27:00 UTC
Ren - The Ed said :-
Cheers Pocketpete, you're just too kind and considerate.
Thing is we can't just look at the oil and decide. We need a laboratory and someone with real skills. Or you can drink it and see which tastes best?
05/01/2017 22:15:22 UTC
Pocketpete said :-
I've probable drunk worse real ale.
I think oil is better left to the experts. my bike runs better on the castrol. They put crap oil in when I had it serviced. My gearbox is not the same since it was silky smooth when it had the castrol in. Now I get those random clutch or missed gear issues. I'm hoping when the decent oil goes in these disappear.
Oil filter and castrol are ready for the oil change. I'm waiting till I've done 4800 miles. That will leave me 3600 till its next service.
06/01/2017 09:00:04 UTC
Henrik said :-
I'd also like to know where Bob is getting his oil from :-)
(I could easely make a decent living on re-sale if its an ok oil)
06/01/2017 13:58:55 UTC
Ren - The Ed said :-
We'll all be millionaires this time next week!
06/01/2017 16:21:45 UTC
David CW said :-
What's the score with "running in" oil? I've heard that new bikes come with running in oil that's changed at the first early service.
Is this right?
31/03/2017 13:48:58 UTC
Borsuk said :-
Mine did.
I was told modern synthetics don't let the engine parts bed into each other properly so they use old style mineral oil till the first service then change to synthetic.
31/03/2017 15:29:03 UTC
Ren - The Ed said :-
Now I ain't an oil expert as can clearly be seen above but I often hear the same as Borsuk.
The general idea is that these so-called super duper modern oils don't allow the necessary engine wear to bed things in a little.
31/03/2017 15:59:54 UTC
said :-
There seems to be some confusion on what happens to the viscosity of a multi grade oil as it warms up (background - I used to be a tech support officer for a synthetic lubricant company).
Take, for example, a 20/50 multigrade oil. The base oil has a viscosity rating (how thick is it) of SAE 20, and at low temperatures the long chain molecules of the viscosity index improvers are curled up in tight little spirals - so the oil behaves as though it were a straight 20 grade oil.
As it warms up, the VI molecules open out into long chains - like spaghetti - giving the 20 grade base oil a lot more body. Yes, the oil might seem thinner when it's hot - but it's still as thick as a straight 50 grade oil is at that temperature, and not as thin as a straight 20 grade would be.
Re. VI additives getting chopped up. Anyone who switched from riding Brit bikes to Japanese ones in the late 60s can tell you that is no myth. I used to run my BSA B.31 on cheap 20/50 multigrades with no problems at all - but when I got my first Japanese bike, the cheap 20/50s went from nice and thick to thin and watery in a very short mileage, and long before Mr Honda said the oil should be changed, so I (like plenty of others) was forced to use much more expensive multigrades, designed specifically for Japanese bikes. So why the difference? If my B.31 didn't trash cheap multigrades, why did my Honda?
Simple; the B.31 (and the unit construction bikes) kept the engine oil and the gearbox oil seperate, so we could run engine oil in the engine, and an EP (extreme pressure) gear oil in the gearbox. It wasn't the Japanese engines, as such, which destroyed the long chain VI molecules - it was the heavily loaded gears in their gearboxes which did that. Why the Japanese bike makers thought an engine oil could or should withstand the shear forces and extreme pressures found in a gearbox is beyond me (probably the same clot thought that running camshafts direct in cylinder heads with no bush or bearing was a good idea, too . . .)
Re. detergents; despite the name, detergents in oils do NOT act like Fairy Liquid, and do NOT wash great lumps of crud out of nooks and crannies in an old engine and block oilways. All they do is to hold contaminents in suspension until the cartridge micronic oil filter catches them. Older bikes with their very basic wire mesh or felt filters rely on REGULAR oil changes to remove the contaminents - so if you're one of these people who proudly boast that your bike has "only done 72 miles in the last nine years", don't think you can leave the oil in there because the handbook says "Change the oil every 2,000 miles"! No machine was meant to just be standing around until it corrodes away from the inside - get out and RIDE the damn thing!
To sum up, if your bike has a very basic wire or felt filter, and peaks at 24 BHP at 5,800 rpm, where's the sense in buying an oil designed to cope with a Hayabusa being redlined through every gear? It's like building a garden shed out of mahogany and teak!
Jack Enright
23/05/2020 22:52:37 UTC
Ian Soady said :-
Hi Jack.
Interesting and informed contribution. Just one point: the makers of my Norton ES2 (and others of the era) specified engine oil for the gearbox - SAE 40 in winter, 50 in summer. Of course multigrades weren't available then. When they were the recommendation changed to 20W/50 although I take your point. I use 20W/50 in the engine and straight 50 in the gearbox which seems to suit it well enough.
24/05/2020 09:41:23 UTC
Ian Soady said :-
Oh by the way nice to hear from a new contributor.....
24/05/2020 09:41:54 UTC
Ren - The Ed¹ said :-
Cheers Jack! Cor a tech support chap from an oil company, proper qualified.
I can only suppose the idea of a combined engine and gearbox comes down to packaging for compactness. Of course a separate engine and gearbox with their own individually tailored oils makes the most sense. The right oil for the unique requirements of each part. And yet once the Japs established this combined setup it seems the oil companies have caught up with oils that reach a better compromise, but it is still a compromise. Save for some Harley models I can't think of any modern bikes that aren't unit construction.
24/05/2020 11:35:41 UTC
Ian Soady said :-
As I understand it the first combined engine / gearbox units in general use were fitted to the BMC Mini (the original of course) in the late 1950s. I was told by a chap who had worked for the company that the famous green Duckhams 20W/50 was developed specifically for this application.
A lot of British bikes were called unit construction but most if not all had separate oil for the engine and gearbox, especially when they used a dry sump system.
24/05/2020 11:54:47 UTC
Ren - The Ed¹ said :-
Yes having worked on Minis (and Metros) the gearbox is where the sump is and sits in the same oil. The advantage being packaging making for a tall but very short motor to fit into the small engine bay. I didn't know about Duckhams being made for this, mind you back then I was only coming to grasp the difference between an engine and a gearbox.
24/05/2020 12:23:48 UTC
Upt'North said :-
Going back to 68(?) the CB750 was both dry sump and unit construction.
Unit construction, another good reason to use motorcycle oil I'd have thought.
But let's not start an oil thread. Please.
Or is that what I've just done?
Darn it.
Upt'North.
24/05/2020 13:43:09 UTC
Ian Soady said :-
You mentioned oil but I think you got away with it.
Don't tell him Pike!
24/05/2020 14:03:25 UTC
Ian Soady said :-
ps I'm sure the CB750 didn't arrive till the early 1970s....
No, I'm wrong, Wikipedia puts it at 1969.
24/05/2020 14:07:44 UTC
Ren - The Ed¹ said :-
We're not talking about the stuff you put into engines here I hope, you know that leads to a plethora of disagreements and wild opinions. Stick with discussing tea. Milk first... water first... tea bag out before or after the milk and/or water... Just boiled, just before boiled, freshly drawn or previously boiled, strong or weak, do flasks ruin the taste...
Dagnammit I've started another argument.
24/05/2020 17:42:50 UTC
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