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Clear Speed Signage Please

Blog Date - 20 September 2016

Riding (and driving) has changed since I were a lad. Back then for the most part if you were in a town or a village the speed limit was 30mph. If you were out in the countryside it was 60mph. There were a few 40 and 50 zones but they were the exception rather than the rule.

Today in Bolton where I live some streets are 20mph. Some are 30, some are 40, there's the odd 50 and but a mere handful of 60 zones I can bring to mind. This article is NOT, I repeat NOT complaining that the speed limits are too slow. What I wish to bring to mind is how poorly signposted the constantly changing speed limits can be and how this can lead to those trying to be good law abiding citizens falling foul or the law.

A 20mph speed limit sign. 20 in a red circle on a postBy 'eck, we didn't av these back int day.

Within my locale I know the area well enough to know what the posted speed limit is for my commonly used routes. If however I find myself in an unfamiliar town I am often left wondering "is this a 20, 30 or 40 zone?"

What, am I some kind of careless buffoon who goes around with my eyes closed? Let me put a scenario to you. You're travelling along an unfamiliar broad open road that does have houses but they're set way back from your lane. You've recently passed a large 40 sign and a handful of the smaller reminder signs too, you're happy that this is a 40 zone and you're riding appropriately. You're approaching some traffic lights. There's 3 lanes and you're looking directions to Town X on the big green sign, there's a car right up your backside and the driver's on his mobile phone, a young mother is trying to keep her 2 offspring from crossing before the green man lights up and it's just starting to rain. 

The lights remain green, the car behind hasn't rear ended you yet and mother keeps the rugrats safely on the footpath. You remain on the broad open road and accelerate back up to 40mph. 

What is the speed limit here? 40mph? Actually no. While you were watching all around to protect yourself and other road users you missed the single 30 sign just after the lights and partially covered by the limb of a tree. Knowing the highway code you soon realise that you've not seen any reminder signs on the lampposts for half a mile now and you start to ask yourself "what have I missed?" You slow down but it's too late, a camera has snapped you, a van has trapped you or the car behind with the mobile phone user turns out to be an unmarked cop car. 

Maybe you're turning into a side road. It's wet, dark, windy, you can smell diesel and the road surface is all broken up. You've slowed right down to navigate this treacherous corner safely giving clear indication and once clear you return to 30mph. Nope. While you were dodging potholes and checking that Mavis in the Nissan was going to give way you didn't see the 20 sign.

A tree branch filled with leaves obscures the view of a speed limit signYou might not know this is a 50mph sign.

Perhaps you're coming up to a busy bustling roundabout at rush hour. HGVs surround you on all sides, bicycles whizz in between and pedestrians are rushing to catch the train. There was a 50 sign you missed on the approach and now you're keeping to 30mph while all the locals are scooting off into the distance. You may not be breaking the speeding laws but you're a hazard to yourself and other road users due to the speed difference.

There are plenty of ways even the most careful motorist can be overwhelmed by traffic, dangers, considerations, signage, bright lights, conditions and a plethora of other things. This is modern life and this is modern traffic and the modern motorist needs to be ready to deal with this. I wish that the people who plan and create our road network would do what they can to help us out though! Personally I have no objection keeping to the posted speed limits. I'm in no rush and I wish to remain safe for myself and have no desire whatsoever to hurt anyone else. 

Show me the speed limit and I will do my best to keep to it.

Ideally I would hope that every lamppost would have a small roundel upon it with the speed limit clearly displayed. If I was in any doubt then a glance at the nearest street light would immediately inform me and I could adjust my riding to suit. If there are no street lights then it is a 60mph (or 70 if it's a dual carriageway as per the highway code). If there are no street lights but the speed limit is less than 60 then reminder signs should be posted as often as possible. 

A red circle with white background showing 50 and rappel written beneathThe French have "RAPPEL" signs seen quite often by the roadside. Rappel means recall.

I am not concerned whether or not you think road X should be a 50 rather than a 30. I am not interested in your belief that speeding fines are a secret government tax. I don't want to know how you did 80 down this and that road because it was late at night and quiet and therefore it was OK. The law is the law. If you want to change the law speak to your MP. I just want to know what the law says about the speed limit on a road so I can choose to keep within the law. (or not)

Reader's Comments

Pocketpete said :-
If anyone wants info on speed limits I would be glad to help out. The main ones to watch out for are

1. Street lights less than 200 yards apart = 30

2. Two lanes either direction such as the a556 through mere. This is a two lane single carriageway. Confused.. max 50mph or even 30mph if there are Street lights less than 200yards.

There will only be a grass small kerb separating the two sides.

These are the roads which our boys in blue prey on poor road users for their pension money. I remember doing 140 cars in one day on the two lanes in cheadle. Not one driver knew it was a 40mph zone. They thought is was 70.
23/09/2016 08:29:51 UTC
Ren - The Ed said :-
Can you show me the passage in the Highway Code that states "Street lights less than 200 yards apart = 30"? I remember hearing such things but never reading them in black and white.

My understanding is that dual carriageways have a physical delimiter between them. This can be a grass verge, a concrete or tarmac area, a barrier or some other physical separation. 4 lanes in both directions with no delimiter is a single carriageway and correspondingly 1 lane in both directions with a barrier is a dual carriageway.

Dual carriageways are only 70mph is national speed limit zones.

See what I mean!?! It's not exactly clear so that's why I wish there were blooming signs everywhere so there's no confusion and no excuses.


23/09/2016 20:16:15 UTC
Tony said :-
One question for you Pocketpete.
The road in Cheadle, is it clearly signposted with 40mph?

I must admit I had to re-read the highway code booklet on types of road because a two lane single carriage way sounds like a contradiction of terms. Maybe time to read the whole book again. Thanks for the heads up!

23/09/2016 20:32:51 UTC
Ren - The Ed said :-
From the Goverment website with the highway code...

Rule 136
Where a single carriageway has four or more lanes, use only the lanes that signs or markings indicate.

Dual carriageways
A dual carriageway is a road which has a central reservation to separate the carriageways.

So a dual carriageway must have a central reservation - thats all.
23/09/2016 21:13:49 UTC
Pocketpete said :-
Yes in cheadle it is clearly signed. It has Street lights and a 40 sign but no repeater signs. This is due to the street light being less than 200 yards apart.

The interesting question is what is a central reservation.

Is it a metal barrier.
Is it a concrete barrier
Is is a raised area
Is it grassed with a barrier.
Is it grassed with a kerb.

The answer is difficult because it depends on the traffic order in place.

Basically if it has a raised metal barrier armco or similar it may be a dual carriageway but a sign must be at the start of the dual carriageway. If no sign then it's a 2 lane single carriageway.

No wonder I used to do so many drivers on roads like these. And don't forget in a goods vehicle over 7500kg it's 10mph less than a car in car 50mph wagon 40.
24/09/2016 13:31:27 UTC
Pocketpete said :-
The other thing on here is people refer to the highway code as if it's important. It's not.

It's not a legal document it's basically an "idiots guide" something to give general advice to learner motorists. You cannot breach the highway code or be convicted of a breach of the highway code.

To find correct answers you need to refer to the legislation that relates to the offence in question in this case the road traffic act and it's amendments.

If you are doing 33 in a 30 can you get done for speeding.

If you are doing 34 in a 30 can you get done for speeding.

The answer is silly really.

In Cheshire or north Wales you will get done at both speeds. In manchester Cumbria and lancs you will only get done at 34.

Offence is speeding over 30 + 10% + 1 mile an hour = 3 points.

So at 70mph most forces will only do you at 78mph. Cheshire and Wales 77mph.

This results in Cheshire Police being called gurkas. "Take no prisoners" they do you for everything.
24/09/2016 13:42:43 UTC
Pocketpete said :-
As requested

Section 82(1)(a) (of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 (RTRA 1984)) defines a restricted road in England and Wales as a road which is provided with "a system of street lighting furnished by means of lamps placed not more than 200 yards apart". Section 81 specifically makes it an offence for a person to drive a motor vehicle at a speed of more than 30 mph on a restricted road.

A grassed area separating 2 lanes in either direction without raised curbs can never be a dual carriagway

God I hate the road traffic act is so bloody complicated so if you get done check how far apart the street lights are. 210 yards apart means you will get off at court if an officer gives you a ticket.

This has happened several times as councils sometimes put the lights in at incorrect separations.
24/09/2016 13:49:42 UTC
Ren - The Ed said :-
When I was teaching people to ride motorcycles we were taught to state the following...

The Highway Code is NOT law...but where it says "MUST" or "MUST NOT" there's a real law behind it. However if you don't follow the highway code you'll end up in trouble and if you do follow the highway code the law will (hopefully) be on your side.

So as I'm riding down a road I ought to carry a tape measure with me and be sure to measure the distance between lampposts? Blimey! Hence my desire for a much better and clearer speed signage system.

If there were lots and lots of regular reminder signs we wouldn't need to worry about how far apart the lampposts are, or whether or not the "bit in the middle" is a grass verge, barrier or has raised curbs. We'd just know how fast we are allowed to travel.
24/09/2016 19:35:13 UTC
Pocketpete said :-
Yes your right better signage is required but always remember the more people the police prosecute the more secure my index linked pension is.

"You do not have to say anything unless you wish to do so but what you do say will be written down in pencil so we can rub it out and stitch you up later"
24/09/2016 20:18:00 UTC
Ren - The Ed said :-
I fear giving the conspiracy theorists an open forum...but...if it was purely about safety then clearer speed signage would be an obvious starting point. I fear I may have opened a can of worms.

When it comes to the the female of the species I have a saying. "Whatever you say will be taken down and misinterpreted as evidence against you."

After our recent comments regarding our respective small partners I wish to make the following statement. If Ren - The Ed and Pocket Pete go missing may I recommend the authorities look for 2 sub 5 foot females of a certain age trying to sell 2 CB500X motorcycles and both wearing a big grin.
25/09/2016 07:55:58 UTC
Ian Soady said :-
I agree that the whole thing is a mess. Your example of the French sign is good - another good thing about the French (will they never end?) is that the entrance to a town sign means 50 kph unless otherwise stated; the end of the town (name plate with a diagonal red line through it) means national limits unless there is a lower limit sign in place.

But don't ask me about priorité à droit which we nearly came foul of a couple of times in the last trip.....

Satnav (not again he says) can also be helpful. I was very impressed by how quickly the device picked up the applicable speed limits. It also cleverly knew when we were in a tunnel. Its routefinding in Spain however was somewhat perverse.......
29/09/2016 14:25:32 UTC
Ren - The Ed said :-
Cheers Ian and I'm glad you're home safe as it seems you were having much more fun than can be healthy.

The French system of having the town name as the start of the 50kph zone is great - to a degree. Here in North-West England amongst the mill-towns and cloth caps all the towns are gradually merging into one massive conurbation (sadly). Perhaps this is what makes the currently vague speed signage system so very difficult to keep up with.

The shortest route between my place and Sharon's abode is 27 miles. In those 27 miles we pass by some fields and green stuff but there's few distinct lines where you can say "Town X stops here". Unless you've lived in the North West it may be hard to appreciate just how populous it is around here. By 'eck it's grim oop norf.

Let me think. From mine to Sharon's...30, 20, 30, 60, 40, 30, 40, 70, 30, 40, 30, 60, 40, 30. And those are the speed changes I can remember.

Priorité à droit! Oh my word yes Sharon and I had a few lairy moments in The Netherlands with that as it may or may not apply there depending on the road, the markings, which way the wind is blowing and if the driver has eaten granola for breakfast. It's a long outdated practice that needs outlawing to solve the problem.

How did sat-nav know you were in a tunnel? Does the sat-nav voice scream "HELP! I'm lost - I must be in a tunnel someone save me!"?
29/09/2016 15:10:01 UTC
Pocketpete said :-
The French gave always given way to traffic on the right and they make that almost as complicated as the road traffic act.

If I remember its all down to little markers on the side of the road and some tiny diamond shapes signs. Which of course the frogs ignore and then when they see a foreign car suddenly decide they rules apply and they are going to pull right across the road. Oh the joys of St Catherine de fierbois where is missed a taxis by 2 inches.

The French have a lot to answer for.
29/09/2016 18:52:07 UTC
Ian Soady said :-
Au contraire, PAD is actually quite rare these days but you do need to keep your eyes open, and in 30-odd years of riding & driving frequently there I've never seen the behaviour you describe. The diamond shaped signs aren't tiny but are quite visible; junctions where you have priority have a quite different sign to those where you don't; and if you look, roads entering where the "major" road has priority will have a white line and a prominent STOP sign.

I actually think driving is perfectly fine in France although different to here. The main thing I notice is that motorcycles are actually treated with respect (not always deserved I must say) and assisted to overtake rather than blocked as so often happens here.

The 2 instances of PAD I struggled with were:

1. where the (busy) road north through Arreau (lovely little town which I will describe elsewhere) meets the road coming out of the town just after a blind bend. The latter is just a very minor local road whereas the former carries a lot of heavy traffic from Spain. And these have to stop to let everything out.... If you're not ready for it it can be a shock.

2. was a roundabout in St Jean Pied de Port which is a very pretty but busy place. It's very tight (for our car / caravan outfit anyway) and I ended up stranded across it while a steady stream of traffic came across my bows - till a kind Citroen driver took pity on me and waved us across.
30/09/2016 10:36:49 UTC
Ian Soady said :-
ps no idea how the satnav knew but I assume it's built into the data. Interestingly, the little position marker continued to move through the tunnels. Unlike the Garmin I used to have which just told me the signal was lost and threw up its metaphorical hands.
30/09/2016 10:38:21 UTC

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