Looking across to the snow capped alpine mountains seen from the back seat of a motorcycle

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Ian Soady said :-
Good article Mr North and it supports much of what has been said here. It brings in risk compensation which of course is a factor.

I have long thought that much "advanced" rider training merely increases the speed at which the crash (not accident) happens as people think they're now riding gods so can go that much faster. I must admit to falling for this myself but as I was riding bikes with sub-100mph top speeds I got away with it.

I truly believe that what keeps you safe on the roads is not superior riding skills but attitude. So there we are trundling along the road and there's a side road on the left. A car stops and the driver looks towards us. What do we do?

(a) continue to trundle along admiring the scenery safe in the "knowledge" that we've been seen and there's no need for action or

(b) cover the brakes, knock the throttle off a bit, adopt a "Z-line" manoeuvre giving the driver maximum chance to see us. And consider a polite beep on the horn if they seem not to be concentrating.

If we adopt (b) - yes we will arrive at our destination half a second later if the driver does in fact notice us and give way. But better than arriving early at A&E if they didn't. Remember that bikes and riders are small things and easily overlooked especially as the driver is actually looking for a gap to pull out into - not a motorcycle which subtends a very small angle until it's on top of you - the "looming" effect, as seen in the link below.

It's worth remembering that at 30 mph the actual stopping distance according to the HC is 9 metres - ie 2 car lengths. And these were based on old vehicles with cross ply tyres and drum brakes ( a bit like mine in other words).
07/07/2020 10:56:07 UTC
Ren - The Ed¹ said :-
Fascinating stuff Upt', From my own perspective being on the pedal bicycle during lockdown I felt very vulnerable with just a pair of shorts, t-shirt and a flimsy whimsical helmet. There's no doubt my "proper" helmet, my padded jacket and pants and my sturdy boots do, whether I like it or not, make me feel a little more like the "Terminator" and less like the "Cowardly Lion". I'm not exactly fast now but if I were to ride in shorts I doubt I'd barely move.

What is the answer? I truly don't know. We need cars without seat belts, crumple zones, driver aids and even perhaps fit ineffective brakes. Motorcycles the same and no helmets or jackets. Great we've all slowed down, save for the world's risk unaware plonkers and those who make genuine, honest mistakes. So we need protection and technology to save us from plonkers and mistakes but this makes motoring safer so we speed up. ARGH!

I've seen that clip before Ian. It's the propeller that worries me, the plane is off to one side but that prop must have been close, real close.
07/07/2020 01:24:35 UTC
nab301 said :-

I'm sure years ago I remember that highly qualified riders generally had loaded insurance premiums presumably because they had bigger accidents . Locally ( Ireland) the police force are rarely seen on motorcycles in recent years . Apparently from a maintenance point of view the costs are horrendous and although never published the crash statistics are high according to those in the know , whether this is as a result of over confidence I'm not sure.
I must admit my only interface with a car was in the early 80's and was caused by inability to process information and making assumptions... the vehicle in front stopped in a hurry at a green light, I had plenty of distance to stop but my brain couldn't compute the smoking tyres of the vehicle in front with a green light and the need to stop because of the closing gap.... until it was too late.
Fast forward to recent years , a similar scenario to the one above related by Ian , approaching a junction to the left with a vehicle exiting, happens on a regular basis , no problem, I have all the angles covered,( or so I thought) , drop a gear, brake , sound the horn, prepare to stop , vehicle moves and stops, if the vehicle restarts , they'll be clear of the junction before I arrive , as I said already, never make assumptions , expect the unexpected which in this case was that the vehicle did restart (not unexpectedly ) but turned sharp right into my lane which I didn't expect (it was now on the wrong side of the road heading towards me ) at this stage I had bottomed out the front forks in the wet on my ageing non abs 1990 VFR without locking the wheel and luckily the car returned to the correct side of the road before I arrived although I had it more or less covered.... What did I do soon after , I sold the bike , I had many similar incidents on that bike , presumably the frontal area isn't great for oncoming trafic.
07/07/2020 01:33:58 UTC
Upt'North said :-
If you were to go into the compound of a police garage you would see many damaged police vehicles and yes usually a bike or two too.
I don't think it would be over confidence as a rule, but the use to which vehicles are put and also the conditions in which they are used. Yes the drivers/riders do receive training but physics is still physics and sooner or later it'll get ya.
One saying, which always proved true, was, "if you ride hard enough, long enough, shite will happen". Did too.
07/07/2020 02:00:52 UTC
Ian Soady said :-
Many years ago and far away my late father was a DCI in Durham County Constabulary in charge of their Serious Incident Squad. They whizzed around the county in tooled-up Triumph 2.5 PI estate cars. All the drivers had to be Class 1 so my dad, not wanting to be left out, took (and passed) the Class 1 test - in fact I have his certificate in front of me.

He used to come back from these sessions in a state of terror having been instructed to overtake on blind bends, ignore speed limits and generally behave in a way that had he not had blue lights and siren would have had him disqualified.

He always said that he understood why fire engines and ambulances needed to get a move on but in his line of work where they were going to something like a murder it was completely unnecessary. Having said that he'd happily sink 3 pints then drive home....

He taught me to ride and drive according to the "system of vehicle control" - Roadcraft - and although it's outdated many of the principles are still valid.

07/07/2020 04:19:51 UTC
Upt'North said :-
And out of all Roadcraft instruction Ian I believe the "Vanishing Point" rule is the one that will get most bikers back home safe and sound.
07/07/2020 06:19:54 UTC
Upt'North said :-
Don't remember anything in Roadcraft about the beer though.
Perhaps it was in the CID version along with hanging crooks out of the window of moving vehicles.
07/07/2020 06:22:25 UTC
Upt'North said :-
Feeling generous, do you wish to treat a loved one. Come on, you know you do......
Just noticed that the Triumph outlet on the interweb thingymabob have ladies T's and other stylish apparel from £1.00! Sizes are very limited but there are bargains to be had.
WEMOTO are also selling off last year charity T's for £7.00, these are extremely robust but make sure if someone is a 40" chest you order the 40 to 42 etc as the sizing is probably a little tight. This year's charity T's are inferior quality.
More fashion advice to be posted shortly on bikes and travel in stylish apparel.
Ed needn't apply, sorry Ed but you bring it on ya'self, oh yes you do.

08/07/2020 11:20:57 UTC
Ren - The Ed¹ said :-
Cheek and impudence!!!

I'll have you know I am very stylish. It's just not a style that you (or anyone else) recognises. One day history will look back on my time and revere me as a fashion icon that was way, way WAY ahead (or behind) of his time.

Anyway did someone say £1 T-shirts... back in a bit.
08/07/2020 11:43:35 UTC
nab301 said :-
I have triggered abs on old bmw's in normal riding but also on my 2018 Suzuki 250V strom which i find rather unsettling. Apparently , certainly on the older bikes the rate of deceleration of the wheels that triggers abs is pre programmed at the design/ development stage so to my pea sized brain that means for example that a 20 odd yr old BMW that was developed with something like Dunlop D204 tyres will not benefit from 20 yrs of (stickier) tyre development later in its life, or am I missing something obvious?
Some interesting articles that I read years ago . There are two more articles at the bottom of the attached article which cover what was being developed at the time ( race abs ) and is I think currently fitted to top end sports bikes.

08/07/2020 05:24:17 UTC
Upt'North said :-
I think you may be.
The tyre will only try to lock when the braking effort is too great for the grip provided by the tyre.
If you have more grip from the tyre, then more braking effort can be exerted on said wheel before the lock will attempt to occur.
Again think about driving on slippy ice, the ABS will activate easily. This because of sod all grip.
Now, a lovely warm summers day, with slick tyre and a really good shove on the pedal, it will be unlikely to activate the ABS because the tyre is affording more grip. A lot more grip.
Does that make sense?

08/07/2020 06:23:35 UTC
ROD said :-
Yes I think Nigel is correct, the more grip from the tyres the less the ABS will work.
Upt' I do not think you even need slick tyres, as you can left the back wheel with good road tyres before the ABS activates.
08/07/2020 06:32:32 UTC
Upt'North said :-
Is it me?
Rod, I used the term slick tyre because this is the tyre that would produce maximum grip in ideal dry conditions. We don't need tread then.
08/07/2020 07:04:37 UTC
Upt'North said :-
So in short.
You are less likely to lock a wheel if the coefficient of friction is greater with a superior tyre. Thereby less likely to activate ABS.
08/07/2020 07:07:39 UTC
Bogger said :-
I quite fancied a £1.00 T shirt. So I typed Triumph into the search engine and it bought up a Lingerie site. So I never quite made it to the £1.00 T shirt site. I do however have triumph saved as one of my 'favourites'.

09/07/2020 10:05:27 UTC
Ren - The Ed¹ said :-
Dirty old man Bogger... Triumph did you say?
09/07/2020 06:19:50 UTC
Bill said :-
Nab ABS is not triggered by pre programmed wheel speed. It the comparison of wheel speed. Within the programmed parameters if the differential in speeds exceeds the programmed value the slower wheel has its brake pressure released . During heavy braking with the front brake, a lot of load transfer goes into the front tyre increasing its grip, conversely the load on the rear tyre and its grip lessens and a skid is more likely. Or if either tyre has a sudden reduction in CoF such as oil or ice. On a four wheel vehicle the big advantage is you can still steer under maximum braking the ABS maintaining wheel rotation.Now some bikes have cornering ABS with inclanometer and yaw sensors.
We have come a long way from drum brakes, I remember when cars got disc brakes they had a rear sticker saying caution disc brakes, so people didn't run into them as they stopped quicker :-)
10/07/2020 10:37:06 UTC
Ren - The Ed¹ said :-
I've oft wondered Bill. I can imagine the computer reading the wheel speed of both wheels. If the front is doing 30 and the rear suddenly drops to zero or perhaps 7 then apply abs to the rear. And vice versa too. But if both wheels rapidly stop ie both wheels lock then there's no difference between the two wheels, the computer assumes the bike has stopped.

Or, does is monitor the difference in speed with a proviso the wheels should NOT drop more than say 2mph in 1/10th a second, if they do then apply ABS? I'm merely guessing here. I suppose these numbers and settings are those which make the difference between a "good" ABS and one that becomes intrusive.
10/07/2020 12:54:46 UTC
nab301 said :-
@ BOb and Ren If you click on the link in my above post there are two more linked articles at the end of that one, the first one i've linked here and it suggests that reaching a pre programmed deceleration triggers the abs , hence in my previous post my query re fitting "stickier" tyres in theory would not allow shorter braking distances.
10/07/2020 01:18:16 UTC
Bill said :-
The abs systems I have worked the ecu also receives vehicle speed signal so sees the rate of deceleration as well as wheel speed differential.so in your scenario of both wheel locking I assume the rate of deceleration of the wheels would be too high so both brakes would have abs active, the calculations take place in milliseconds and repeated until back within parameters.Dont know about bikes as mine dont have abs but the system only function after a set speed 7kph(trucks) that's when your abs light goes out as it's done its system checks
10/07/2020 02:14:33 UTC

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