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Rust And Brakes
Blog Date 9 February 2021
It is proving very hard to write a motorcycling blog at present because nothing is happening much. There's certainly not enough to bring you full and complete articles so today I'm going to sum up the small things that are still happening.
1. Rust.
Regular readers will know I keep my motorcycles dirty and oily. This peculiar year has seen me with time on my hands and I foolishly did some cleaning over the summer because I was bored. Now that winter has rolled in and the bikes are sitting in a cold damp tin shed there has been an orange outburst.
This will teach me a lesson. DO NOT clean motorcycles. If a part must be cleaned for inspection ensure that before refitting it is covered in used engine oil (except brake stuff, that's not good). Ensure even uncleaned motorcycles are given a regular dose of used engine oil or grease or anything else to hand. Both my bikes are now once more resplendent in their shiny black winter coats and I'll not be making THAT mistake again.
Sharon too is suffering. She cleans in the hope that the shiny clean motorcycles covered in polish will keep the rust mites at bay. No. She is presently trialling the renown ACF50 and we will keep you posted on if/how/what this product is about, or not.
It's shiny now it's covered in ACF50. We wait to see if it works.
To all the "Chinese bikes are poop" naysayers out there. The 2013 Keeway 125 is standing up to the years better than the 2016 Kawasaki. In fact I'd say it's almost embarrassing to compare the crankcase coatings. I wonder if the closely related Benelli range is being made to the same standards as the Keeway was.
2. Brakes
I'm sure the long suffering CBF125 is already on its second brake calliper. As usual it has started to get a bit sticky and stiff so the regular strip and clean was in order.
My policy of not lubricating the pins seems to be working. Normally I have to hammer the calliper off the pins but this time I required a gentle tap and wiggle to separate the two. So, erm, if that's not the part that's sticking then what it? I'll clean the pistons and have a look.
Curious. The dust seals seem to be in some kind of escape bid from between the bores and the pistons. We all know I'm no mechanical genius but I'm pretty sure they're not supposed to do that. Gosh darn it. I pop the pistons out as well as the seals.
That's not dirt, thats the rubber of the dust seal in a bid for freedom.
New seals? £8 for cheapie no name replacements or £20 for a half decent "seal kit". These pistons are already rather pitted and worn though. Do I just do the seals or replace the pistons too? Pistons and seals, about £40. Stainless steel pistons and seals and rebuild kit £58. Wemoto has a full replacement front brake for £43. I'm curious, what sort of brake do you get for £43? I'll let you know... I do these things so you don't have to.
I think these pistons have seen better days.
I am pondering fitting stainless steel pistons to the CB500X's brakes. This ought to negate once and for all the annoying habit of pistons corroding in the bores. I know I'll still have to replace seals and clean sliding pins relentlessly but at least the pistons will be OK. Will they? I mean they're cheap enough and available for the X but has anyone reading had any experience with them? I'd also have to work out how to get the ABS into brake bleeding mode.
And that is all that is happening in the 2 wheeled world of Ren. Not a lot. No trips planned. No new bikes planned. What I'd really like is for this Covid thing to be sorted so I can go for a nice long ride. I think it would be foolish of me to expect that to happen soon.
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Reader's Comments
Upt'North said :-
Stainless won't rust because.....it's erm......stainless.
But in my experience rust isn't usually (outside of Ed's world) the culprit with sticking pistons, it's just crud. Those 125 pistons are horrible, I wouldn't ride a bike with them fitted. The internal bores must be marked up too.
If you're going the new caliper route, it'll be interesting to note the quality of parts and how the blummin thing works. I think that's the way I'd go.
Or shoot it!
Upt'North.
09/02/2021 12:50:36 UTC
Bob said :-
What he said - there's no downside to stainless.
Usually a caliper sticks because of the corrosion crud that builds up in the groove behind the piston seal. The MZ I used to have had a second external concertina seal on the outside of the piston - the brake never became sticky.
In general ACF50 is your friend, I lather it on everything except the brake discs, it really is miracle juice.
09/02/2021 13:28:02 UTC
Ren - The Ed said :-
I am curious regarding stainless pistons. Yip, sure they wont rust and should be an absolute doddle to clean. However because I am me I do like to over-complicate things. I'll add a link below but the general notion is stainless and aluminium can cause some galvanic electrolytic strange chemistry the results of which are corrosion, most likely in the ally bits rather than the stainless bits. Think of stuck stainless bolts in engine crankcases.
Bob - most cars have a "concertina" cover betwixt the piston edge and the calliper. Why don't we have these on motorcycles (save MZs)? Did no-one tells us - we are not supposed to ride in the rain and on salty roads, tut.
Upt - you'll be pleased to hear I have ordered the el-cheapo brake. I shall report back my findings as and when I have them.
09/02/2021 15:37:40 UTC
Ren - The Ed said :-
Oh - link`
https://www.marshfasteners.com/can-stainless-steel-and-aluminum-be-used-together/...
09/02/2021 15:38:06 UTC
Snod said :-
In normal operation (i.e. when new) the seal is dragged along by the piston, and then the seal pulls the piston back off the pad when the pressure is released. Link to gif below.
Unfortunately the seals on bike brakes are open to the elements rather than stretching and covering the piston, as Bob says his MZ had - my K100 is also like this, as are all the old triangular shaped Brembos and presumably their Grimeca copies. Car brakes are also like this which is why you don't often see car drivers outside in the winter scraping out their calipers.. Anyway! Because water and salt and salty water can get to the seals, some of it gets behind the seal (always the poor dust seal because it's first in line) and makes lovely white corrosion with the aluminium of the caliper. This forces the seal to press on the piston and suddenly you have dragging brakes because the design doesn't work properly any more, but you can still force the piston ever further out should you so wish. Some say that stainless pistons will corrode even more vigorously with aluminium because they are further apart on the galvanic scale than aluminium and mild steel. Some say that modern brake pistons are already basically stainless. All I know is, stainless pistons from Powerhouse fitted well but didn't have much of a chamfer on the bottom so they were difficult to put in. The bike didn't live much longer so I have nothing to report on long term testing..
https://i.imgur.com/uTQXcsK.gif...
09/02/2021 15:53:27 UTC
nab301 said :-
Although technically they won't be in contact because of the seals is there a possibility of galvanic corrosion between the aluminium caliper and the stainless piston ?
Likewise I have an Mz and it had a exterior seal which was great , when the time came for repairs(25 yrs) ,caliper and master cylinder were in a bad condition so I purchased new items from a German MZ specialist but obviously the parts originated a little further east because the seals in both failed and replacements weren't available from the supplier.
I ended up fitting a new caliper from a BMW airhead that I had ex stock ( with a bracket I made up ) and obtained a master cylinder of suitable diameter from a local supplier.
I've used ACF50 for years , currently I just mist it on lightly to the frame/ under tank larger areas and brush it on to bolts / bolt heads , threads etc. The contents of the can are listed as mineral oil so Ren , maybe you were correct all along and (mineral) engine oil will suffice ?
Nigel
09/02/2021 16:01:41 UTC
Bogger said :-
I rate ACF50.The chrome rims on the Cub are still like brand new after 12yrs.
Bogger
09/02/2021 17:33:54 UTC
Kerry said :-
I'm also one for filling my oil can with engine oil.cheap. Also have a fondness for Castro general purpose grease.cheap. On the stainless steel to aluminium corrosion I use petroleum jelly aka Vaseline (no sniggering). IN a former maintenance tech role we got to look after a few cnc glue machines that had a hi pressure water cleaning system. Delivery by stainless steel injectors mounted in the head casings ...similar to a car. The manufacturers lubricant instructions for re builds of all parts from injector rubber seals to springs to aluminium bores was use petroleum jelly sparingly. Nothing else. Result no corrosion, no perished o rings. Just my tuppence worth. It's also great for packing the back of electrical multi plugs to prevent moisture ingress or on metal parts to prevent rust better than oil imo Also we were given a kitchen unit with a stainless deep fat fryer and a specialist oil for cleaning machine parts. They came out like new.
09/02/2021 17:53:10 UTC
Ren - The Ed said :-
It would appear wise to at least *question* if stainless steep pistons are the ultimate solution. How about ceramics? Thing is where can I get very accurately shaped ceramic pistons for a price that isn't treble the value of the bike?
That's an excellent gif Snod. Even with ceramic/stainless/perfectium pistons this still would not prevent the corrosion around the 1st seal, the dust seal. So, erm, ceramic callipers too I reckon. This is going to cost more than all the bikes I've owned.
Or, as stated, find and adapt Communist Bloc brakes that were indeed designed to work through harsh winters and in grimy conditions. It's not like it's impossible to make long lasting brakes, it's just that most marques can't be bovvered.
As for ACF50. I have a ready supply of anti-corrosion fluids, used oil. I wonder what I could add to make the application extra sticky? Glue? Honey? Gravy granules?
09/02/2021 18:02:12 UTC
Bob said :-
ACF50 is expensive but worth it.
If you're determined not to stump up for it, similar results can be achieved by just spraying parts with your choice of poundshop WD40 substitute. The difference is that ACF50 only needs applying occasionally whereas cheapo spray lube will need spraying on after every ride and hose down (assuming that you do hose your bike down after every ride in winter).
I'd not heard of ceramic brake pistons, I suppose they should be good but I don't know enough about them to judge. As for the stainless to aluminium galvanic action I don't worry about it - these parts are not just left in contact to corrode away, they are moving w.r.t. each other and anyway the brake fluid separates the two.
I am a big fan of Petroleum Jelly and use it all the time in the garage on electrical connectors and rubber seals mainly.
10/02/2021 09:32:40 UTC
Ren - The Ed¹ said :-
I'm guessing the advantage of ACF50 is its ability to stick once the solvent has flashed off.
I've stated before I had a cheap loose Grimeca calliper on my CLR125 City Fly. The pistons on that were odd. They looked and felt half ceramic half metallic. They felt like those cheap metal parts formed by compressing metal filings at high pressure. I'm sure I'm wrong but they were as though moulded out of metal in epoxy resin. But they never once rusted or corroded and could be cleaned with a wipe of an oily cloth. I'll add a link...
So you're all Vaseline folks huh? I thought so, I shoulda known, the clues were all there. Not only is it cheap and effective in the shed it has other uses too. No, no, no, stop it. I suffer from dry and cracked fingertips which can be painful, a regular dose of petroleum jelly helps keep the cracks at bay.
https://www.cmsnl.com/honda-clr125-cityfly-1998-w-germany_model2637/piston_45107...
10/02/2021 10:07:23 UTC
nab301 said :-
I actually use silicone grease on all external rubber brake parts .
Nigel
10/02/2021 11:11:04 UTC
Ian Soady¹ said :-
I fitted anodised aluminium pistons to the Brembo calipers on my Guzzi. They seemed to work well and had what felt like a non-stick (ptfe?) surface.
10/02/2021 11:42:08 UTC
Upt'North said :-
I thought you'd been taking pictures of blind cobblers when you showed us ya thumb Ed.
A hikers tip for vaseline......Lips First!
This is in danger of becoming a grease/oil thread.
I managed to resist Ed, brownie points please.
And talking of brownies Er'Indoors has just baked a batch if ya passing.
Upt'North.
10/02/2021 12:50:23 UTC
Upt'North said :-
Now here's a thought......gawd help us.
Instead of all this maintenance malarkey why don't we all just sign up for a PCP for three years and let some other fool have the pain when it's old and tired.
If you did it for something with 4 wheels you'd probably never have to fit brakes, tyres, exhausts; no Mot's. Where's the fun in that right.
Upt'North.
10/02/2021 12:57:20 UTC
Bob said :-
Why do people do it?
£2000 deposit, £200 per month for an annual mileage limit of 4000 miles. Plus the cost of fully comprehensive insurance, gap insurance and servicing.
Sign me up...
I think we're all "enthusiasts" here aren't we? As opposed to people who use motorcycles?
10/02/2021 13:33:06 UTC
Snod said :-
My TRX has 4 pot Brembos on the front, the likes of which were also on 90s Ducatis and a few other Yamahas. Those calipers have some very nice aluminium pistons which are coated in PTFE or Teflon or something, it's grey and slippery and seems a lot like powder coat. The calipers still seize after a winter. They feel great once cleaned up and everything's slippery again though!
Ceramic pistons are also a pain to get out if you ever feel the need, because they can crack. The Brembos on my K100 have them, a caliper design from the 70s..
10/02/2021 13:47:30 UTC
Ren - The Ed¹ said :-
So - ceramic pistons won't rust but could crack. Stainless may or may no cause galvanic corrosion in the ally of the calliper. Ally pistons need to have a PTFE coating which I'm pretty sure I could ruin. I've had enough of this nonsense, I'm fitting one of these.
10/02/2021 14:10:02 UTC
Ren - The Ed¹ said :-
And now Upt' is suggesting we all go and get a PCP deal.
There are times when I'm elbows deep into the bowels of the 500 I wish I'd done just that and throw in a service package too. And there again when you get made redundant it is nice to know I don't have to shell out 80, 100 or 150 pounds a month to keep a bike. And be limited to 4,000 miles per year (although this year that might have been enough).
There are the odd times when I regret working on the bike myself. These are (mostly) superseded by the sense of satisfaction of doing the work myself and either a) knowing it was done right and proper or b) knowing how I bodged it so I can keep an eye on it.
10/02/2021 14:15:39 UTC
Jim said :-
No doubt if I signed up for a PCP I’d be driving a newer car than I do, and I’d avoid a lot of lying on the ground swearing. But I’ve never got over the idea that I want the car to be mine 100%, and that so far has trumped every other consideration. That and I don’t like being constrained by a mileage limit.
Interestingly though I think those of us that tackle our own maintenance are a dying breed. There are 41 houses in our little street, all built with integral garages. Most of the owners have converted their garages into extra rooms, as they’ve no need for tools. Sad state of affairs.
10/02/2021 15:29:55 UTC
Bob said :-
The main thing for me with PCP is that it's a liability.
There's this thing which is worth thousands of pounds, which I don't own yet I am responsible for and liable for costs if anything happens to it - I don't want that in my head.0
10/02/2021 16:29:21 UTC
Bogger said :-
Bob the same could be said for anything you own. It's all a cost and all a liability.
Bogger
10/02/2021 17:22:25 UTC
Borsuk said :-
I knew I was a bit off course when I dropped that anchor but didn't realise I was that far out.
11/02/2021 09:49:48 UTC
Bob said :-
Bogger, aye but the point with a car or bike is that it's worth more than the "owner" has and it actually belongs to someone else (the finance company).
That's very different to buying a thing outright and then losing or breaking it - in that case you are not liable to anyone else.
12/02/2021 07:58:34 UTC
Upt'North said :-
The PCP thing was kind of said in jest, but I can see for some it would work OK.
If you're going to replace a vehicle every two or three years then you will only pay for the part of it you use in that time, not its whole value, hence it will cost less per month and you haven't got to try and pass it on at that time. Obviously you may have to pay interest for the privilege, but maybe not and discounts can also be offered for finance deals only.
I once bought a car on a PCP because it was offered at a good discount and zero percent interest. So it would have cost thousands more to buy it outright, strange but true.
There's nothing wrong with debt, as long as it's not bad debt.
Put your hand up if you've never had a mortgage.....thought not.
After all a mortgage is a very expensive loan, it's probably going to cost you two or thee times it's initial value before the house is yours and whilst paying the mortgage you must have expensive home buildings insurance.
Debts OK, but read the small print, a bit like life really.
12/02/2021 09:46:16 UTC
Bob said :-
All well said.
Not to labour the point, but in all but exceptional circumstances the important difference between a mortgage and vehicle finance is that with a mortgage the thing you are buying INCREASES in value....
12/02/2021 14:16:01 UTC
Ren - The Ed¹ said :-
I suspect because this site covers repairs and bodges and upgrades and high miles etc etc it tends not to attract the attention of those people which PCP suits.
Think about it, for say £100 per month you can "own" a new motorcycle. If you're riding on nice weekends and enjoying the odd tour then 4,000 miles a year is fine. You don't have to deal with old knackers and their constant maintenance and foibles. Every 2 or 3 years you trade in and get the latest greatest version of your chosen style and marque.
There's a lot of riders who DON'T want to service their own machines or replace chain and sprocket kits or ride through cold harsh winters. There are times when I don't relish the idea of going elbows deep in grease and dirt just to force my poor old bikes to work in spite of entropy.
PCP would not suit me at all, but I can completely see the attraction and logic for those people who's approach to motorcycling is different to mine. There is one advantage to PCP for the oiks like myself. A range of low mileage, good condition, serviced but not bodged and oft well looked after used motorcycles.
13/02/2021 12:39:35 UTC
said :-
Ed, an awful lot of people don't know how to maintain a bike. Not even the basics of oiling a chain or checking the oil.
Bogger
13/02/2021 16:06:06 UTC
Upt'North said :-
Or even much more worserer bogger.
They haven't got a clue but they do it anyway.
Although with the interweb thingymabob there's enough tutorials out there.
Upt'North.
13/02/2021 18:00:00 UTC
Bogger said :-
Have you seen people using a spanner or ratchet and they don't know how to. Everyones got to learn. But, I sometimes cringe and think either that bolt/screw is going to break or snap or there's going to be blood everywhere.
Bogger
13/02/2021 20:43:58 UTC
Ian Soady¹ said :-
It's a good job we all like different things. To me, the challenge of taking a rusty pile of bits and turning it into a presentable working motorcycle is an important part of my life. To others, the thought of even changing a spark plug brings them out in a cold sweat. When I started riding I didn't know anyone who took their bike to a dealers for servicing etc or even major work. And I'd spent my formative years shivering beside my dad as he struggled with various recalcitrant bits of machinery - in fact I'm told my first word was "spanner"..... I must say however that the charms of working on 4 wheelers have evaporated as these have become more complex and less accessible.
Although I have an HNC in mechanical engineering and went through a technical apprenticeship, most of my vehicle knowledge was picked up as I went along hence my sometimes unorthodox approaches. I'm still not a fan of freezing in a cold shed or garden however.
14/02/2021 11:08:26 UTC
nab301 said :-
Strangely my MZ caliper has plain uncoated aluminium brake pistons which only seized when I dismantled the brake system and inadvertently left the pistons in situ for a long time ( the hygroscopic effect) , my BMW original triangular brembo calipers have what looks like teflon coated aluminium pistons with some sort of composite filler in the centre (hollow part of the piston) ( presumably to discourage pad squeal ) photo attached with centre removed. These calipers were rebuilt twice and the pistons are a pain to remove without the hollow centre . The interior of the caliper is coated too. I eventually replaced these calipers with gold Brembos and have have never had to rebuild them.
I bought a cheap VFR which had pistons like Rens 125 , replacing them with OE did wonders for the brakes . Ren, how does it pass an MOT with the piston like that?
Nigel
14/02/2021 16:51:34 UTC
CrazyFrog said :-
No PCP for me ta. I don't allow other people to work on my bikes and never will. That's also the reason I'd never buy new. Go on, ask me why...
14/02/2021 17:40:32 UTC
Ren - The Ed¹ said :-
It's odd and at times frustrating watching Sharon with a spanner. I've been wielding spanners since I was about 5, learning the hard way how to break a bicycle while attempting to fix it. I'm not a genius or a natural, I just have 40-odd years of practice. You just learn that if you hold the spanner this way then you're going to strain the bolt, if you pull on the ratchet at that angle you've not got the maximum leverage. Sharon listens and learns but there is only one way you can get a feel for tools and that's by using them - a lot.
We still have long pauses while she goes through "lefty loosy, righty tighty".
To Sharon's eternal credit - even before I knew her she has always been on top of basic car care and now basic bike care. She's always known how to check the oil, the coolant, washer fluid, brake fluid, tyre pressures and tread depth. Sure - she didn't know how to fix things but she did know WHEN things needed fixing. There's far too many folks of all genders, ages, cultures and creeds that haven't a clue with these basic yet essential skills.
nab301 - re the 125 pistons - I guess I've usually cleaned the pistons before the MOT. Anyhow you can't clearly see them without dismantling them.
OK CraztFrog... WHY!!
14/02/2021 19:29:47 UTC
CrazyFrog said :-
Back in my yoof, I had a Kawasaki GPZ305 as my 1st big bike. After about 6,000 miles the clutch went, so I took it back to the main dealers to repair under guarantee, and I asked them to fit new tyres whilst they were at it. I was totally green about bikes at the time, but when I went to collect the bike they were still trying to fit the tyres, but we're having a hell of a time trying to get them to stay inflated. I looked at the tyres which had 'tubed type' written on the side wall. 'Doesn't that mean they need an inner tube?' I asked innocently. 'No mate, they're universal fitment these' replied the mechanic. After an hour or so fitting and re fitting the tyres he eventually declared it was ready to go. Surprise, surprise, both tyres were totally flat by the time I limped home, and on further inspection I found hammer marks on the engine case inflicted when they fixed the clutch. The tyre issue in particular could easily have killed me. I complained to the dealer who was totally unconcerned, and thereafter I complained to Kawasaki UK who couldn't be arsed to even reply to my letter. I vowed that nobody else would ever work on any bike of mine ever again, and they never have. I sold the Kwakker and bought an MZ specifically so I could teach myself how to do all the maintenance myself.
In the last 10 years, I've bought 3 bikes with 12 months MOT, all of which had potentially lethal faults which I found when I gave them the once over at home. I've also heard horror stories related by other people, so it seems that bike mechanics haven't improved. I'd trust Alan Millyard or Sam Lovegrove with one of my bikes but not any mechanic working in a bike shop anywhere...
14/02/2021 19:44:38 UTC
Upt'North said :-
C.F.
I do agree that there are some very questionable bike and car mechanics out there. BUT, I don't think you can condemn them all by the actions of some. I am choosy who I trust with my maintenance and actually do most myself, although I have met some honest, hard working and knowledgeable chaps along the way and make sure I use them when I need too.
I may be biased because I served a mechanical apprenticeship in the 70's and learnt that many who mentored I were truly inspirational and at the very top of their game; their guidance hopefully rubbed off on me so condemning all mechanics would be condemning them and indeed myself. That I cannot do, if not for myself, for them.
Seek and yee shall find.
Upt'North.
14/02/2021 23:39:52 UTC
Ren - The Ed¹ said :-
I've not had bad experiences with mechanics - much. When we took Sharon's bike for a service they'd adjusted the chain - tight - I could have played it with a violin bow. Lord knows what they were thinking. Otherwise I've nearly always done my own bodges, sorry, work, so I only have myself to blame. And I am far from perfect.
Presently I'm in need of some roof repairs. While it is possible I could do the work myself I have neither the tools or experience required. As such I require a professional. I'm sure there are some excellent roofers and I'm sure there are some cowboys too. I can read reviews, I can seek opinions and referrals but I've never done this before so I am at the mercy of luck. It's the same for anyone choosing a mechanic. There are good 'uns and bad 'uns and there are also times when good 'uns make a mistake and bad 'uns accidently do a good job.
Both Sam and Alan are lovely folks with both skills and passion. They also have the benefit of the editor. While neither of them are bodge merchants like myself I'm absolutely sure they've both cocked up. From forgetting to tighten the wheel spindle to not noting which way round a piston is fitted, we've all been there.
15/02/2021 09:13:20 UTC
Ian Soady¹ said :-
I've probably mentioned this before.
In 2005 I bought a 1 year old Triumph Tiger 955i from a main dealer. It had about 4,000 miles on the clock and was very tidy. As part of the deal the dealer gave it a full service and changed the rear tyre. The bike was a delight to ride but if in traffic for any length of time it would start to get hot and the fan would come on. It also seemed to pull slightly to the left hands off.
I went back to the dealer asking about the overheating and they asaid - wait for it - "they all do that sir". A bit of digging on various forums disclosed the fact that some earlier Tigers had had thei hoses to the expansion tank crossed so that coolant could expand into the tank but not return. Mine should not have been set up like this as it was well outside the affected VIN range - however when I investigated there it was - pipes crossed. This could only have been done by the dealer. With regard to the pulling to one side, as some of you will know the Tiger had eccentric chain adjusters. When removing the back wheel these should be left strictly alone. They hadn't done this and reassembled with the eccentrics miles out of line.
I know that there are excellent mechanics out there but never seem to have come across them.....
15/02/2021 11:45:04 UTC
Ian Soady¹ said :-
Oh, and Sam Lovegrove? I remember seeing a TV programme some years back when Lovegrove was restoring a Bonneville while Henry Cole watched and fooled around. They'd had all the tinwork professionally painted and Lovegrove came to fit the rear mudguard. Oh dear, the fixing holes were about 1/2" out. So what did he do? Redrilled the holes, on the bike, then plonked the bolts in without cleaning up the burrs or priming and painting the raw edges.
That was the point when I realised that his reputation was built on sand. I appreciate their programmes are designed to attract the maximum audience but they're not for me.
Alan Millyard is of course a totally different kettle of fish. But then he's a very modest chap.
15/02/2021 11:47:42 UTC
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