Looking across to the snow capped alpine mountains seen from the back seat of a motorcycle

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Water Injection Anyone?

Post Received 17 June 2020

By Mark Noel (Images added by Ren)
 
This afternoon I went on a ride down south to Peel leaving home in nice warm sunshine. However, once below Kirk Michael the coast road was blanketed in fog and I noticed a distinct increase in power. So much in fact that my Honley 125 became a rampant beast with acceleration that nearly tore my arms out of their sockets and I could barely keep the front wheel on the ground. At last I coasted into Peel and calmed my nerves with a yummy rum and raisin ice cream and reflected on the drama that had occurred.

A very very wet road and hillside on a terrible and wet day
Good genuine solid British weather.
 
It reminded me of reading in the bike mags many years ago about the merits of water injection into the inlet manifold in order to gain ‘free’ power. The idea was that water droplets entering the combustion chamber would absorb excess heat, liberating steam and thus adding to the horsepower and reducing fuel consumption. I believe there were even adverts in the biker press for such injection units. There was some discussion about whether water would combine with the sump oil to form a milky mess, although that would not be a problem for two strokes of course.

Water being injected as a mist into the throttle body
More power, or plain stupid?

So what happened to this novel idea which seems even more relevant in these days of environmental awareness. Has anyone followed up on the concept and tried water injection on their bikes?


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Reader's Comments

Ren - The Ed¹ said :-
Water injection is still a "thing" for sure, check the video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhShcJZ3JAk&...
13/08/2020 10:18:30 UTC
Bogger said :-
I'm already on with converting the pant fridge to link with the inlet manifold on the Innova. Proper power when its sorted. I reckon about 500 mls per pair of undercrackers.

Bogger
13/08/2020 10:53:42 UTC
Upt'North said :-
If your pant fumes get ingested it could be a land speed record.
Upt'North.
13/08/2020 11:10:26 UTC
Upt'North said :-
Mark,
Do you think it's ready for 130 mph + lap?
Upt'North.
13/08/2020 11:16:29 UTC
ROD said :-
This is a new concept to myself.

I have come across using electrolysis to seperate out the hydrogen gas from the water and feed this into the inlet manifold.
13/08/2020 12:12:34 UTC
Ian Soady said :-
There is in fact an effect of colder and moisture laden air in that it's denser so you get more of it into the combustion chamber. The more that gets in, the more power you get.

Engines often seem smoother in cold damp conditions but I doubt you can actually feel any power increase. "Rampant beast" may be something of an exaggeration.....
13/08/2020 04:25:56 UTC
Mark Noel said :-
I am now running my Honley on water with petrol injection - an idea that is entirely novel and set to make me even more famous (and ridiculed!).

Seriously though, this idea needs further investigation, perhaps using one of those ultrasonic fog making machines that I have seen forming part of Santa and reindeer ornaments at Christmas. Alternatively, you can buy fog making transducers from ebay: simply search for 'ultrasonic mist maker'. Then modify the airbox of your bike to fit the transducer with water fed from a small bottle. Please report your results to this website.

If using the Christmas ornament option then do remember to first remove Santa and the reindeer which otherwise could be sucked into the engine.


13/08/2020 06:49:33 UTC
Bob said :-
I have had many bikes which run better on cold and damp days.
Thinking on though, wouldn't the mixture need to be adjusted to compensate?
In terms of ultimate efficiency though, every engine should be fitted with a supercharger!
13/08/2020 10:50:01 UTC
Ross said :-
"In terms of ultimate efficiency though, every engine should be fitted with a supercharger!"

Superchargers aren't a magic bullet though, putting drag on the engine to drive them and the weight of the unit itself...they do sound good when they're whining though! :)...it all saps power and efficiency. Turbochargers seem more popular possibly because you eliminate the drag on the engine for the drive and 'just' have the weight of the unit...but they, too have there limitations with lag and heat. Both types of forced induction seem to work better on big, multi-cylinder engines...but having said that, the car world seems to be turbocharging smaller engines with fewer cylinders these days! (scratches head)...ah, lets just go back to a nice piston ported two-stroke and done with it!!
14/08/2020 08:51:56 UTC
Ian Soady said :-
Exactly!

What my mighty Fanny-B should look like when finished.....
Posted Image
14/08/2020 10:32:30 UTC
Bob said :-
Ian you'll be able to tell us about the racing 2 stroke that had a pumper piston running horizontally in the crankcase, to act as type of supercharger on the primary charge - was it DKW?

The reason turbos get used instead of superchargers is that they are lighter and most importantly cheaper than superchargers. Yes, superchargers create drag on the engine - but you get more back in gained power.
14/08/2020 11:44:55 UTC
Ross said :-
Lovely...one day Villiers will rise once again to rule the world...as long as it doesn't 'whisker' a plug in the process!
14/08/2020 11:45:48 UTC
Ross said :-
Bob, I didn't realise a supercharger was more efficient than a turbo', I thought the compressing and the blowing side of the unit was pretty much the same? Can you explain that a bit further, please? Every day's a school day! :)
14/08/2020 11:51:41 UTC
nab301 said :-
Totally off topic , one of my favourite motorsport cars of all time the lancia Delta S4 Group B Rally car, supercharged and turbo charged to eliminate turbo lag.....
Nigel
14/08/2020 11:58:35 UTC
Upt'North said :-
More efficient. How so?
I'm confused.
Upt'North.
14/08/2020 12:00:14 UTC
Ian Soady said :-
Yes Bob, DKW produced a variety of configurations including split singles and the one you mention which was effectively a twin with another cylinder providing the supercharging effect. The link has some interesting stuff about them.

Apparently they were ear-splittingly loud - just the thing for Ren!

There's a youtube of a cluster of them here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRAp8PUoS1Y
https://www.odd-bike.com/2014/02/dkw-supercharged-two-strokes-force-fed.html...
14/08/2020 04:59:54 UTC
Ren - The Ed¹ said :-
Oh lordy that video Ian, my ears are bleeding. I think you lot are trying to traumatise me with your 2-stroke fetishisms.

Turbos are often used nowadays on small efficient engines to get good fuel economy and low emissions while still producing a usable (and surprisingly perky) amount of power in modern cars. Superchargers do put a parasitic load on the engine - but I imagine with the right tuning and right setup and so on they could be more efficient.

Visor Down in the link reports "ZZR power but with better fuel economy." for the H2 SX Kwakker. As for the why I suppose, I guess... Erm.
https://www.visordown.com/news/new-bikes/kawasaki-ninja-h2-sx-review-first-thoug...
15/08/2020 09:57:48 UTC
Bob said :-
At any given RPM you need a certain amount of power to spin the impeller to create the required increase in input pressure and It's more efficient to spin the impeller using power direct from the crankshaft (through a suitably low loss drive train) than it is to scavenge that energy second hand from the outgoing exhaust gasses.
It's one less conversion of energy, therefore one less place to loose energy.
Superchargers don't restrict the exhaust flow so the outlet dynamics work better, the exhaust can be properly tuned to give better torque and power.

15/08/2020 04:52:19 UTC
Bob said :-
I love that Oddbike link - thanks Ian!
15/08/2020 04:55:05 UTC
Mark Noel said :-
Never mind turdbochargers folks. Listen to this:

After developing my HydroBoost water injector I next modified my 125 to incorporate regenerative braking via alternators fitted to each wheel, thus dispensing with two set of brake pads. The electricity produced during braking is used to electrolyse water, with the hydrogen being stored and injected into the inlet manifold producing extra, free power. Oxygen released by the hydrolysis flows to a mask worn by the rider boosting his alertness which is essential above 17,000' the limit where normal breathing cannot sustain life. Thus double benefits are provided by my RegenTek System.

So by combining these unique, novel, one-of-a-kind, world first, never-seen-before RegenTek and HydroBoost technologies I can now ride to the summit of Everest on 1 litre of 4 star and 1 litre of water (melted from the snow of course) while breathing safely in oxygen-enriched Himalayan air.

I cannot imagine why nobody has though of this before.
16/08/2020 12:14:28 UTC
Upt'North said :-
I worry about Mark. Quite a lot.
Although I will be reporting shortly on my own methane power enhancement. My "own" being the important emphasis.
Upt'North.
16/08/2020 12:40:27 UTC
Upt'North said :-
After some initial investigation and testing I can say with little fear of contradiction..... It goes like stink.
Upt'North.
16/08/2020 01:38:04 UTC
Mark Noel said :-
Ren, it is clear from their discombobulation and cerebral dissonance that your readers don't understand a word I am enunciating.
16/08/2020 06:07:00 UTC
Ren - The Ed¹ said :-
The predicament you postulate is due primarily I conjecture in your operation of a veritable fantasia of protracted words. Why employ a perplexing compendium of eloquence to this unpretentious abode of motorcycling? Mere commonplace verbosity can still express your deliberations without confusing or befuddling the masses.

In other words - whaaaaaat?

So Mark. Alternators instead of brakes. Place a load on the alternators to act as the brakes. Use said load to power electrolysis creating Hydrogen and Oxygen. Hydrogen is used for enhanced power, oxygen to enhance high altitude breathing. Use newly named "RegenTek and HydroBoost" system to tackle Everest on a 125. I dun spoke it in normal wurds.

In the meantime Upt' has created his own fart enhanced performance system. This clearly demonstrates the broad and wide catchment of this website. I feel dizzy now, I must be sure to tap into Mark's Oxygen system and not Upt's Methane system. That, THAT would be the true definition of a disaster.
17/08/2020 08:25:01 UTC
Ian Soady said :-
Bob liked the oddbike link: here are a couple more to entertain (hopefully).

The first is a recumbent / feet first racer. Anyone remember the Quasar etc? This takes it a stage further and is also reminiscent of the Dragwaye sprint bike.
https://www.odd-bike.com/2019/07/guest-post-robert-horns-rohorn-two.html...
18/08/2020 01:42:19 UTC
Ian Soady said :-
And the hub centre steered Yamaha. Again reminds me of others eg Mead and Tomkinson's Nessie.
https://www.odd-bike.com/2013/12/yamaha-gts-1000-future-is-forkless.html...
Posted Image
18/08/2020 01:49:07 UTC
nab301 said :-
I wonder could I add a turbocharger to the aptly named Enfield turbo twin , pity they're as rare as hens teeth!
Nigel
18/08/2020 03:22:41 UTC
Ren - The Ed¹ said :-
I enjoyed the piece on the Yamaha GTS and RADD. We are certainly stuck in the groove of telescopic forks while there are what appear to be better solutions out there. I'm still looking for the perfect replacement for chains...

nab301 - there is a turbo kit for the 125cc MSX (Grom)(complete with intercooler!) so I'm sure there'll be something you could adapt for the Enfield. See the link, it could be your starting place for tuning nirvana.
http://fullblownmotorsports.com/full-blown-stage-1-turbo-kit-honda-grom-msx125...
19/08/2020 08:07:32 UTC
Upt'North said :-
I do like to see the occasional odd ball bike but there are reasons that bikes are manufactured the way they are and why odd ball is called odd ball.
I'm not sure I get "better solutions", unless better is more complicated, more expensive and more likely to require maintenance and all that for little or no gain.
I wonder if Yamaha ever made the development money back. In the case of BMW they can afford to be different because they have a clientele that can and will pay for it.
A nice simple telescopic fork suits me just fine.
Upt'North.
19/08/2020 09:16:05 UTC
Ren - The Ed¹ said :-
Well you're just an old stick-in-the-mud ain't ya Upt'! You'll be sorry when I create my ultimate motorcycle with hydrostatic drive, front swingarm super duper handling front suspension, 450bhp but 250mpg engine, as light as a bicycle and as comfortable as a Bently motorcycle. Yeah, yeah, you be well jel innit.

Now, where'd I put my hacksaw...
19/08/2020 10:24:38 UTC
Snod said :-
Upt' you don't find telescopic cartridge forks complicated?? Sure there are damper rod forks but they barely work - hydraulic lock when they need to collapse, too soft when they need to be stiff, silly all round. Not to mention all that bearing malarkey in the headstock that takes a beating and needs to be replaced now and then.

Gimme a long lived ball joint, wishbone and coil over shock any time.. We just get all the same stuff now because it's mass produced and therefore cheap. Urgh you've almost got me started now, where are my copies of the UMG..
19/08/2020 06:07:49 UTC
nab301 said :-
Ren , all that for just 15bhp , I think i could do a good job myself on my CB125F with an exhaust and maybe a big slide carburettor! (Well, it worked on the Ransomes (pedestrian) cylinder mower I fitted a 2 stroke (that word again!) slide carb to maybe 45 yrs ago ! I couldn't keep up with it and I was a lot fitter back then...
The BMW telelever is a good balance between quirky / different and very useful but most who purchase other BMW models with conventional forks reckon they handle just as well... and I'm sure conventional allows BMW to be more profitable.
I am however a fan of Telelever for its stability in fast sweeping bends.
Nigel

19/08/2020 06:31:53 UTC

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