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CBF 250 Cam Chain Rattle - SOLVED!
Repair Date - December 2014
By Stephen Latchford/Ren Withnell
Both myself and my friend SL have Honda CBF 250's. We both agree that they are good motorcycles with excellent handling, a more than acceptable amount of grunt for a 250 and that they're a good little bike. We also agreed on some other aspects, One thing was that the motor rattles like bunch of pound coins that have escaped into a tumble drier. Both bikes improved as the engine warmed up but it never sounded quite right. What we disagreed on was the cause.
Ren - "Piston slap, don't worry about it."
SL - "Nah, nah, don't think so."
Ren - "It is, that's why it eases when it gets warm."
SL - "Nah, no, It...it just doesn't seem right that. Cam chain."
Ren - "Nah, wrong, too loud, too constant, piston slap..."
And so the conversation went on. Eventually SL's bike got worse and even I had to agree the rattle was taking on that intermittent extra noise that comes from a loose chain. I still wasn't convinced and my pessimism almost had SL stripping down the whole motor to see what the issue is. He decided to start with the simplest thing, the cam chain tensioner.
The cam chain tensioner - note the cross head bolt. It's there merely as a cover.
This is located at the back of the cylinder on the right hand side close to the carburettor. There's a broad cross-head bolt that can be removed and behind this deep in a recess is a slot. This can be turned with a watchmaker's screwdriver and this alters the amount of bend on the tension blade thus "tightening" the cam chain. SL turned the little slot, lo and behold the noise went away and the motor ran as sweet as a well oiled little sewing machine. Sorted. Sorted? No. As he watched the motor run he noted the slot gradually turning backwards, undoing. The rattle returned.
This is an automatic cam chain tensioner. With the use of a wound spring the tensioner should automatically twist the slotted mechanism just enough to take up the slack AND stop the slotted mechanism from unscrewing. It seems something was not up to the job, probably the amount of torque the spring could produce to keep the tension. SL faced a decision. Either purchase a new cam chain tensioner, or turn it into a manual tensioner. There's a risk a new tensioner will have the same problem, especially as he knows another CBF 250 with the same problem. And he's got no money. And he likes to tinker. So tinker he did.
The tensioner in bits. Note the spring, this is wound tight insde the tensioner.
Using the thread that the cross-head bolt went into he replaced the spring and screw tensioning system with a long bolt and a locking nut. Simply put the bolt was tightened until it pushed the tensioner face onto the blade. He ran the motor and GENTLY tightened the nut until the motor went quiet, then locked the bolt in place with the locknut. This left him with one quiet CBF 250 and a big grin on his face. While the automatic tensioning is gone it really is a 2 minute job to make occasional adjustments if the rattle returns. Sorted. Properly this time.
Done! Tighten the bolt and the plunger at the opposite end moves out to move the tension blade.
He sent me his instructions and some pictures as a guide and for me to use here on this website. I only had one issue with his amazing ingenuity. The threads that he used, where the cross-head bolt used to be, are not part of the casting. They are a simple push-fit bush into the casting. With the cam chain tensioner constantly pushing back against the threads and the bush, the expansion and contraction of heat and just plain bad luck I did worry the bush and threads might fall out.
I found a captive nut from an old horn mount, cut it down, ground it down and made it fit, just a little oversize. Using a vice, brute force and some long sockets I press-fitted the captive nut on the inside of the cam chain tensioner casting. That little bleeder is going nowhere. I drilled out the old thread and inserted my own bolt and lock nut. Well...actually I didn't have a bolt long enough so I used some threaded bar and 2 nuts. Another of Ren's amazing bodges.
The captive nut, ground just slightly oversize then rammed into the housing.
So now we both have quiet CBF 250's. I offer my deepest apologies to SL for not believing him and his superior knowledge that it was cam chain rattle. I thank SL for coming up with a most excellent solution. Now...if only I can sort out the #%&@ing tickover I will consider the CBF 250 to be the perfect motorcycle!
Doneski!
Reader's Comments
SL said :-
I've been trumped! But seriously Ren that is a superior modification you have done there, congrats.
01/01/2000 00:00:00 UTC
Nate said :-
I have a CBF250. It rattles, I was so scared that it was the main crank bearing that I took the engine out but the bearings seem fine. Is this a common problem with CBFs? is there a way of checking without putting my engine back in?
01/01/2000 00:00:00 UTC
Daf said :-
Wouldn't surprise me if it was the camchain Nate... To be honest CBF250 engines are pretty rock solid and long lived. The cam chain rattle isn't really a problem, it's just anoying! I'd go ahead and put the block back in the bike and see if this article works. Other thing to check is valce clearences - they can rattle. First two places to start!
01/01/2000 00:00:00 UTC
Ren - The Ed said :-
Daf's right. The only way to check it's the tensioner is to put the motor back in, get it running and manually tighten the cam chain tensioner. If it goes quiet, it's the tensioner alright.
Let us know what happens!
01/01/2000 00:00:00 UTC
Nate said :-
cheers guys I'll put the engine back in and let you know what happens. Before I loosened the tensioner I could get a good 5mm of movement with my finger. I also took it upon myself to record the engine noise before I took the engine out, did yours sound like this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAaLevbYkb0&feature=youtu.be
01/01/2000 00:00:00 UTC
Ren - The Ed said :-
It's hard to tell from a video as the sound gets messed up by your mic and my tablet, but, yeah it does sound fairly similar. Go for it bud! Worst case scenario is you have to pull the lump out again.
01/01/2000 00:00:00 UTC
Nate said :-
well I put the engine back in and made the cam chain tensioner manual. tightening the cam chain did reduce the noise but I had to really over tighten it and the bike started struggling.
01/01/2000 00:00:00 UTC
Ren - The Ed said :-
Hmmmmmm Nate...that don't sound right at all. Both Steve and myself had to just take up the slack, no pressure, barely even finger tight. It's possible the camchain is very tired or there's something else amiss.
Check you're not a tooth out on the timing. It might be worth changing the camchain. It may be worth stripping the motor to really get to the nub of the matter. How many miles has it got on the clock?
01/01/2000 00:00:00 UTC
Daf said :-
I'd say it's most likely that either the chain's a tooth out, or that it's badly worn... has the bike had a lubrication failure/really dirty oil in it at some point? That could account for it.
The other possibility is that it's some other part of the engine... Starter sprag clutch and the transmission clutch centre bushing/release bearing are usual suspects on these engines. Could be main bearings if you're really unlucky.
01/01/2000 00:00:00 UTC
Latchy said :-
Blimey Nate, sorry you have not got to the bottom of it yet. I hope you get an answer to the rattle and post back on here as to what is causing the noise.
01/01/2000 00:00:00 UTC
Nate said :-
well I checked the timing it was a tiny bit out less then half a tooth, I don't know how exact it should be but it took ages to even notice it, literally about a quarter tooth. taking the valve cover off also gave me the chance to check the tension on the cam chain which was fine its also not noticeably worn. But its still rattling. I'm also riding it again and like before it drives absolutely fine, still sound like the cam chain to me, that part of the engine, doesn't happen at high revs or while idling once its warmed up. Any suggestions? some kind of gypsy curse?
01/01/2000 00:00:00 UTC
Nate said :-
Because the timing was a little bit out do you think its worth just trying one tooth further back? Would it damage the engine?
01/01/2000 00:00:00 UTC
Ren - The Ed said :-
Oooohhh...be careful! If you do decide to move the timing out by one tooth be sure to turn the engine over with a spanner a few times to make sure nothing clatters together. The only other thing I can think of was my initial, and incorrect diagnosis of piston slap...
01/01/2000 00:00:00 UTC
Jose Rosas said :-
Seems very common on this bike. I had a CBF250 that bought and returned to the second hand dealer because I thought it was an engine issue. I bought a second bike and I found out it had the same problem. I used a similar approach. I got piece of metal that fits loose between the outer screw and the tensioner so when you put the outer screew it puts some pressure on the tensioner so it gets locked in its place. Looks better from the outside and is still a fix tensioner. Jose.
01/01/2000 00:00:00 UTC
Ren - The Ed said :-
Cheers Jose! Seems like it is a common issue doesn't it. Sounds like you came up with a smarter solution too. Oh well, I can live with the bolt sticking out of the engine.
01/01/2000 00:00:00 UTC
Matt said :-
For those not wanting to do this mod, I repaired my CCT by giving the tang an extra turn or two on the mechanism... The spring is a nightmare to get back in, but it's possible if you wind it in from the side. Personally I prefer the automated method to get a lower maintenance solution.
24/12/2015 18:37:14 UTC
said :-
24/07/2017 09:47:29 UTC
Godfried said :-
Steven and Ren, you saved my bacon!
On a 12000 km solo round trip from Cape Town, South Africa to Rwanda and back my CBX 250 suddenly sounded like it was not going to take me 10 more killos. I was in the middle of Tanzania with the closest Honda dealer a thousand kilometers away. With all the diplomatic complexity I had to get the bike back to south Africa. My options were to hitch a ride on a big transport truck or to fix the bike without tools or new parts.
After reading your post I managed to get the tensioner of and bingo! The spring was broken in Mbeya I managed to do your mod my engine was puring again.
Thank you for sharing your experience, it literally saved my journey.
Godfried
28/12/2018 05:50:00 UTC
Ren - The Ed said :-
Godfried - fabulous!! That's made me smile. When I write this stuff I never once imagined it would be helpful to a chap in the middle of Africa somewhere. I hope the rest of your trip is trouble free and your picture makes me want to be there.
Many thanks.
28/12/2018 09:45:51 UTC
Kas said :-
Hi, my CCT is broken on my cbf250 as i can hear the cam noise plus when i take the cover off the tensioner then the adjustment screw is just spinning around so i cant tighten it. If i take it out and replace the tensioner then does a new one just bolt back in or do i need to do more? Is it really just as simple as unbolting the old one and then bolting a new one back in? Thanks!
28/02/2019 11:14:26 UTC
Ren - The Ed said :-
As I'm familiar with these things then yes for myself with my experience they're fairly easy to replace. However if you're completely new to this then perhaps not. The tensioner will need to be "wound in" before fitting, if you don't do this then as you tighten the tensioner into place you could possibly snap the cam chain!
I suspect there's a chance a new tensioner will give you the same issue, it seems to be something of a design flaw with this model. That's why we've made the modification that we did. Tread carefully Kas, I'd suggest you might need the help of someone who knows their way around these things.
28/02/2019 17:11:46 UTC
Kas said :-
Thanks for the advice! I was going to take out the tensioner and take a look but thought I better check first before removing it as not familiar with bike engines.
I looked at the Honda replacement part and it seems like there's been a few revisions as the part number has had 2 revisions so could be they've improved it now? If not then I'll go for the manual option like you've done here but looks like I will still need to get someone professional to install it.
Thanks again for the advice and lucky I didn't remove it in my garage or else I'd be stuck here lol
28/02/2019 23:38:48 UTC
Ren - The Ed said :-
I'm torn here Kas. On the one hand I remember a very distraught young man (myself) damaging his own motorcycles through his lack of knowledge and experience. I do not wish that on anyone so I would urge caution. On the other hand without those horrible experiences I would never have learned the things I know now. I'd encourage you to try and to learn, to understand how your tensioner and indeed how the rest of your motorcycle works. But I'd also encourage you to learn as much as possible before you make the mistakes I made!
In a perfect world it would be great if you had a friend to hold your hand and guide you through. We are lucky because today we have the internet which is a fantastic source of information. Again... it's also a source of disinformation too. If you read around this website alone you will see wildly different opinions on things, from simple chain maintenance through to the pros and cons of modern fuel injection systems.
Interesting to see you've done some research already, good call. I did not know Honda had revised the tensioner, do you have any links, I'd be interested to see what they've done.
01/03/2019 08:07:22 UTC
Kas said :-
I know what you mean as that's the best way to learn and how ive learned cars as im more than happy to take a car apart so I think i'll give it a go and I think it will make more sense once ive actually taken it out and played with it a bit.
I've been reading up on the bike and the things that need fixed as I only got the bike in January and knew it needed a little work as I got it cheap for only £500 when theyre normally over £1,500. It came with a straight through exhaust as the old one I could see had rusted badly and was super loud. Now that I've replaced it I can hear the cam chain tensioner noise which was previously hidden by the exhaust. I like to think im not new to maintenance as ive been always fixed my own cars for the last 20 years so this hopefully shouldn't be a problem for me even though bike maintenance is a bit new as ive only ever had to do oil changes and chains on my other bikes.
The link to the part is: https://www.motorcyclespareparts.eu/en/honda-parts/14520kpf852
On the link above you can see it replaces 2 older part numbers and looks like this tensioner was only made for this bike so not replacing a part on an older bike. That's why I thought it might be better now and it doesn't look too expensive (cheap here but double that price everywhere else) or else the manual tensioner is the other option.
https://www.motorcyclespareparts.eu/en/honda-parts/14520kpf852...
01/03/2019 10:20:00 UTC
Ren - The Ed said :-
Aaahh right. I have to be careful as I don't know anything about you. A total novice could easily try to fit the tensioner fully extended, heave it down with the bolts that attach the tensioner body to the barrel and thus damage or snap the cam chain. If you already know your way around car engines then you ought to have no trouble working out how the tensioner works and how it must be wound in before fitting.
There is actually a Honda tool to hold the tensioner "wound up" while fitting. I'll add a link to a youtube vid that demonstrates this very very clearly. You can make the tool yourself out of a bit of sheet metal... or as I did tighten the body bolts a bit, loosen the tensioner a bit, tighten the body bolts a bit, loosen the tensioner a bit. You'll get it when you see the video
Yeah, if you've been spannering cars for 20 years I don't think you'll have too much struggle with the tensioner. It is in essence a clock spring. The problem is that spring isn't meaty enough to gain the required tension. Also be SURE to check your tappets. I had real issues with mine because someone did not check them when they ought.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAQIAyIsVHY...
01/03/2019 12:53:56 UTC
Kas said :-
Thanks! I'll check that out and try to give it a go as ive never had to do anything with a chain tensioner (never even seen one before until now!) which is why im a bit unsure about it.
Im hoping to check the bike over fully and get a friend who knows a bit more than I do to help out before I start and i'll let you guys know how it goes!
01/03/2019 13:22:37 UTC
Ren - The Ed said :-
Cheers Kas, enjoy!
01/03/2019 20:45:04 UTC
tiki said :-
from what i am reading here i think a new hobby may be the answer, like marbles
03/01/2023 12:54:14 UTC
Upt'North ¹ said :-
Nothing wrong with Marbles and Shotties.
03/01/2023 16:56:21 UTC
Ren - The Ed¹ said :-
Marbles tiki? Damn sight easier and less costly than motorcycling of that I'm sure. Perhaps not quite as much fun in my humble opinion though.
03/01/2023 17:09:56 UTC
Russ said :-
I’ve read all the comments above and tried turning the CCT screw anti clockwise while the engine was running and I still have a rather loud ticking sound. It seems to be coming from the left side of the engine (not the clutch side) I’ve ordered a manual tensioner and will fit it once it arrives. My concern is that it might be a waste of money because there’s something else deeper that’s making the ticking sound. Any idea what else could be causing the ticking? Thanks
30/08/2023 18:04:07 UTC
Ren - The Ed¹ said :-
If it ain't the CCT then I'd be getting the rocker cover off and checking the valve clearances Russ. It's bucket and shim so there's not a lot to check really. Also have a look to see if anything else is amiss in there.
31/08/2023 18:22:59 UTC
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